"The fact that Intel has achieved HVM with *any* 10nm product" as quoted at wccftech.
I call BS until I can buy a 10nm DESKTOP chip. This even, is only coming for xmas 2019? LOL. HVM is I can BUY TODAY, or you're lying. I think they can do ONE chip, this one, which I think is Ice-Lake U, so very small compared to desktops. Again, I call BS if they can't make a ~200-300mm^2 desktop. Not ANY chip IMHO if you choose a very small one to HVM and then only for xmas, so just starting today even for the small chips? Is it even HVM yet for this one? Xmas is 12 months away, you only need to pile up a launch for a few months, so should be in a box by sept, back to school etc. If it's xmas I think this is just trying to stop shares prices from dropping due to yet another 10nm delay speech. Either way, 10nm hopes are now 2020 I guess for us desktop people, or do like me and buy 7nm AMD this year ;) I really doubt Intel 10nm will be much better if at all, than TSMC 7nm and 5nm TSMC a year later...LOL. Intel better hurry with 7nm or they've lost the fab race IMHO (said they were losing it 5yrs ago many times, here anandtech, seekingalpha etc). Good for AMD, but bad for America as I don't really want china/arabs winning fab wars vs. america.
I'm really hoping AMD can put out a great 12core (main desktop), and buy a few 8 core apu for HTPC's for xmas (will upgrade board/mem/apu at xmas in 2-3 htpcs). Get 7nm out the door amd, and you have 2-4 cpus sold to my family :) I'm not waiting for 10nm Intel with more mitigations slowing me down again and probably still not solved in hardware totally. AMD has issues too, but more of them require you to be AT the desk to do damage, where with Intel you can do a lot of damage remotely.
"greater execution capability is now part of the architecture" This whole speech seems like no info. What the heck is this? Are you saying you build worse execution capability into chips on purpose before? Is this not the goal of ALL cpu/gpu enhancements? More execution ability? I'm confused...LOL. I've heard of TRUSTED execution, but what is "greater" execution ability built in? You google that you get nothing. I'm feeling like 2019 Intel CES speech was a repeat of 2018 (nothing burger). Until I see a 10nm desktop, whatever man.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13774/intels-keynot... As anandtech says, these are the smallest chips to balance yield/cost. So HVM with terrible yields then? So you have to go SMALL...Is it HVM for ALL if you can't do anything but PUNY chips or they are too expensive to ship? TSMC has HVM for A12x (122mm^2), which is probably in the realm of the size of this chip based on previous die sizes of U chips. Again, not impressed Intel. Wake me when you put out 10nm desktops above 200mm^2 at least and AMD's coming cards have chips in the mid 200's or so it seems again at 7nm TSMC.
"Terms like ‘5G’ and ‘Artificial Intelligence’ are only going to become more ubiquitous through 2020 and beyond, so Intel is jumping on it today." You're a little late, as everyone else is ALREADY here. See Nvidia etc. Is Intel available today, or 2020?
"With Project Athena, Intel is going to discuss with OEMs, with partners, customers, software developers, etc. what they need in order to enable these new terms to provide a good user experience." "As this is a new program based in aspirational discussion followed by execution" Yeah, like I said, nothing burger again. We're about to "discuss" what we might JUMP ON, at a later date when we "EXECUTE" what we "DISCUSS" with oems etc...LOL. How about EXECUTING on some 10nm DESKTOP chips? Never mind, I can just buy AMD 7nm 12 core this year and a gen I won't mind gaming on finally ;) I just hope AMD prices to them make some NET INCOME finally so they can R&D 5nm etc going forward. You can't do that on <100mil a quarter vs. NV (1B a Q) or Intel (never mind...LOL). Price LIKE YOUR WINNING AMD! Not like some discount 2nd rate Intel. IF you win nearly every benchmark at 7nm vs. Intel 14nm (the case for another year probably if they release shortly), PRICE ABOVE Intel. PERIOD. No point in discounting chips if you're WINNING watts/perf. Make hay while the sun shines! Sell to the RICH or continue to be POOR AMD. Ask NV/Intel what this means (HEDT, Titan, 2080ti etc).
Anyway, instead of a wall of text here's a fact: if you dropped Intel's non-volatile memory division.. you know the division that makes the "failed" Optane into AMD, then it would be by far the largest and most profitable segment of the company.
And at Intel they call that division a "side hustle".
Not even sure what you mean by butthurt or scared? Irrelevant post. How about attacking the data? Typical Democrat post ;) Attack data, not the person. Not sure what Optane has to do with AMD, but I do own micron stock (and AMD...LOL), and am UP double (16.77 avg price of my shares), so I'll be laughing when 3dxpoint crap hits next year anyway :) MU/NVDA both great pics (1/2 off in both vs. recent highs), and AMD though risky, not really until Intel gets it's act together in the next 12-18 months. IE, 7nm vs. Intel 14nm is a loser for Intel until then if AMD gets them out soon that is, and never mind what happens with 64core 7nm vs. Intel 14nm 48 core. That's a bloodbath for Intel IMHO, and don't think 10nm Intel will fix it. I think this brings you even maybe, but 5nm right after on TSMC anyway maybe even beating Intel again to 7nm so keeping the lead. Time will tell.
trade wars and IP fights and the like aren't??? of course it is. there's a reason Apple's China Syndrome has crashed and burned. much of that is due to politics: Apple decamped production to China, and other off-shore facilities, because politics encouraged it. politics matter.
You just proved my point. Blah, blah, blah, I hate you, you suck, you didn't say it right, you lie, blah blah, I have no data, but again, you suck and I'm right...LOL. That is all I'm hearing as you said nothing more.
Please be more specific. What science is ignored? When did the topic change to science anyway (I’m talking process and failed chips)?
OK, as a republican (er, only because I have to register with someone, to vote in a presidential primary), what in my post was a lie?
How about you attack the data in MY post instead of shifting topics like all dems do when faced with an actual argument. I’m supposed to defend republican posts I’m not even aware of now? I pointed out exactly what he did and BTW he did nothing but change topics to irrelevant junk not remotely related to my post regarding Intel’s failures in chips/process. However, I addressed his irrelevant comment anyway…LOL.
How'd we NOW get to science and lies (is that relevant to my post?)? The OP responded to my post with "butthurt and scared"...WHAT? Again, this is the point I made with my "typical dem post" reply. ;) The OP responded to me dismantling the article, with, but but but, if Optane (who brought that up?) was part of AMD it would be the largest and most profitable segment of that company. How did we go from “failure of Intel process, and defective chips” to “er uh, that memory tech Intel has (that they’ve failed to successfully launch too BTW), is awesome and AMD sucks because they don’t have it”? Again, he proved my point. I have no comment on what you ACTUALLY said, so here’s my shiny object…LOL. Comic, you just did the same thing. I can’t make an argument, so er, uh, you lie and don’t like science! LOL.
Read my post you responded to, where I gave a link that tells you how to form an argument so we can have a reasonable debate about something, rather than crap like you posted which only serves to PROVE my point yet AGAIN. You have not provided an argument (rather an opinion backed by nothing), and thus have nothing for me to debate...
Can you provide an actual argument on science or lies? I see nothing. Then again, that isn’t even addressing my post either (which the OP ignored too), but I’d like to see you actual attempt to make a REAL point…LOL. Please stick to content in MY post, as it's not my job to defend OTHERS not relevant to what I said anyway :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier... Figure out how this comment crap works ;) Who cares how I say it, it's the data that counts. You remind me of crazy AOC comments like: “I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right,”
Uh, yeah, I don't give a rats behind about what people think about my MORALS (or shouting...LOL). I care about getting the DATA and FACTS right. You should too, regardless of how it's said, or how the text looks. Be thankful I didn't cap it all...ROFL.
Global Foundries is ATIC...LOL. Face palm. You don't read past the product label do you? Just google ATIC fab global foundries. WE don't own it in USA (who owns you matters, not where you park the building), as AMD sold it ages ago.
If another president takes over before trump breaks the China economy more, they will RULE many things if they keep stealing us blind and we keep giving up jobs. At some point we might be speaking Chinese in 20-50yrs (their plan is just that!). Trump is reversing that though, we had 16 steel factories before, then down to 4 up to Obama (nafta, China WTO entrance etc did this 70,000 factories close over this stuff). Back to 10 now already and growing. IF the wall is made of steel, more will re-open. Go 100% block, and they go bankrupt quick. https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article... If another pres gets in wall street will just tell them to stop China trade war (politicians are usually easily bought), and go back to fleecing of America. A few years down the road they take over NK, Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, etc with a president that acts like Obama when Russia took Crimea (gave them tents...LOL, instead of GUNS/AMMO).
OH, and MU (a stock I own) bought a company in Taiwan, and they had traitors there working for China to STEAL tech. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/prc-state-owned-com... See the lawsuit FTC/DOJ just nailed them on. So, even NOT conquered, you still can't trust stuff that is CHINA related in ANY way, including Taiwan. You should be VERY careful with anyone owned or operated by Chinese. They are buying up Silicon Valley to steal everything too. IE, startups being bought right and left, to send it all home to China after we build it all.
https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/business/artic... Traitors. Did you notice its Taiwan employees STEALING tech for CHINA (we’re talking Executive level here)? Nice local rundown of everything in the case. Currently China is blocked from buying AMAT or Lam Research tools that would allow them to compete with USA (can’t make high end stuff). But a loser president could change all that. A fighter like trump will stop it, at least for 6 more years if he builds that wall but if not, likely not elected again as that was the MAJOR campaign promise. Oh, and Limbaugh, Colter, Bongino etc will attack constantly as Rush already did it for 2 days on the wall saying trump was caving, trump let him know he wasn’t. Clearly both of these and more will attack, and trump will go down. Together, a few pundits can end trump if he doesn’t build the wall with the size of their audiences. A LOT of people will hear the message and vote him out. He was worried enough to comment on Rush’s two day bashing ;) Good, he should be worried. Fortunately the MU tech stolen was OLD anyway.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-05... Taiwan president and people afraid, and China thinks they OWN Taiwan (80% thinks China can piss off, 20% side with China though…ouch). Do you read news? Building Military islands to take over the trade routes etc. Google Xi Jinping’s proposal for unification. Uh, sounds like they want it all ;) https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/artic... The article title says it all doesn’t it? “The day a US Navy vessel arrives in Kaohsiung is the day that our People’s Liberation Army unifies Taiwan with military force,” he told mainland media. OK, so they are actually saying they’re looking for an excuse to take them over…LOL.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. Google China 2050 plan (must get Taiwan back by then). Nuff said? Stop watching fake news and READ more. :)
Why in the world are you posting all that here? It's not even directly related to the topic. You are wasting your time... I'm trying to help you, by the way. Post all that in a different topic, like under comments section of a political article and/or an article talking about intellectual property.
Otherwise, you'd likely to be ignored. Why waste your breath.
So I should take advice from a pompous idiot character from a Shakespeare book? Nah... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier... Next time say something worthwhile. There's a pic explaining EXACTLY how you do that. Which you didn't even get on the chart IMHO, but I guess someone could think you made the 1st or 2nd level...LOL.
You consider it shouting, I don't. That is YOUR problem, not mine. You assume vitriol, but you don't even know me...LOL. I don't think it makes my point stronger, I think it gets your attention. It did, or you wouldn't be whining about it RIGHT? ;)
So you just did the same thing...Whatever. That must be vitriol, you mad bro? ROFLMAO. What exactly was cruel or bitter about my criticism of a site CLEARLY (see what I did there?) lacking in data that users of these cards would WANT to know? Anandtech hasn't wronged me personally in some way (I know they lie a lot & mislead the readers even more - but it doesn't hurt my purchases etc, I ignore the fake news...LOL), they are misleading their entire audience for ages as I noted clear back to 660ti and before. I just finally got figured people should be aware of the REAL data, and posted for 660ti and many times since. I guess all the LOL/ROFL, grins, winks etc are lost on some of you people :) It is typical of libtards to tell you to shut up, or "you can't say that", etc instead of following this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier... ...So you can actually form a REAL argument to debate someone. As Jordan Peterson said, you can't discuss things without risking offending people. I don't care if you're offended by my caps nor what you perceive as "vitriol"...ROFL. Crawl back under your rock until you can figure out how to form an argument please. You're wasting my time ;)
I am surprise how people are so blind and believe that everything revolves around the desktops like in the 90's. Also it is important that we compare apples to apples - not Intel 14mm vs 7nm - we should comparing Intel 10nm vs 7nm. It also important one company 7nm vs 10nm does mean it better - it is important to note that nm rating is process and can vary per vendor. It also important to note architexture changes - and it likely Intel's new Sunny Cove could beat AMD even on 14nm.
10nm is coming this year and high volume by holiday season. I think you are confusing 2020 date with new GPU from Intel.
It would be foolish to believe that Intel is not coming back strong after AMD efforts with Ryzen. 2019 is going to be exciting year even with desktops on 10nm. Keep in mind that with CPU's using less and less power, it likely one day - desktop chips will be same as mobile chips.
Please no CAPs - it just reminds me to much of Wccftech and is not reliable.
Who here believes everything revolves around desktops? I want one soon on 7nm, but I think servers/hedt are what matters, along with jacked up laptops (well, ok, everything above $300 matters…ROFL, where 80% of the NET INCOME comes from that is). HIGH margin is what I've been telling AMD to chase for ages. I never said wccftech was reliable...In fact I've said the opposite, but that doesn't mean they get everything wrong. However my 1st sentence after the quote is I think their article is BS...Did you read the post or get hung up on a few caps? LOL. I said the same thing about wccftech article on AMD pricing in the Navi post (I quoted them in 2060 or AMD CES news, then called the article quoted BS). Even they don't believe their own rumors on that one...LOL. Not sure what caps have to do with reliability. GET over it.
Is Intel 10nm out in volume? NOPE, why would I compare something that won't even arrive until xmas vs. 7nm AMD coming before it? As I stated, I don't believe they can make anything else but a small chip on 10nm due to LOW volume they use. NO different than AMD/NVDA doing the same with mobile etc gpu first then reticle limit (for NV anyway) after. YIELDS matter. Anandtech all but says it here too. Yay, we agree on something anandtech ;)
I know the tech matters, which is why Intel stumbled at 10nm. They shot too high (like HBM vs. GDDR5x, hard and new tools vs. simple with same tools), and failed for 2yrs now, 3 if xmas. So they shot low with 7nm to speed the process up and avoid bumps in the road. If AMD has 7nm or shortly, EVERY review will be vs. Intel 14nm chips until xmas, and even then as noted (including anandtech noting it), it's a low volume part and puny, meaning easy to produce even on a crap bad process with defect city. Also, 7nm TSMC vs. Intel 14 IS better, even if TSMC process is not as good per gen. Intel's 10nm will merely bring things to an even playing field vs. TSMC 7nm. Intel will be possibly slightly better (not looking that way now), but it won't be squashing AMD or TSMC any time soon. That will take over a year (likely 18mo+), and even then 5nm will be here for TSMC, so Intel 7nm (like TSMC 7nm as they took the easy way out, unlike usually aggressive due to 10nm failure) won't win any races really. They admitted they cut corners to speed it up. TSMC is actually making Intel chips due to 14nm shortages due to 10nm being screwed so long. You don't see the humor in this point? ;) But yeah, nm, density, gates, etc all mean a lot. But I get the tech, so point wasted on me, unless you have something that says Intel 10nm is great...WTH are you talking about?
No desktops will never be replaced for power users. I guess you haven't been around for the last 30+ years of this crap, as it is all ~80-120w on desktops, and usually ~85-95w. Let me know when your laptop can take that heat/watts. What cpu on top is using less power on desktops or servers? I see them all aimed at ~85w-120w pretty much at launch for every gen.
I said AMD only had 12-18 months in my post to make hay while the sun shines, IE, before Intel comes back if they can. But TSMC is on a roll lately, w/tapeouts, risk production etc, 5nm on track, 7nm out the door massively for apple etc. If Intel 7nm hits and tsmc 5nm very close time wise, the bleeding won't stop for Intel for a while past 12-18mo. In an even race in fabs (I'm admitting it takes a smaller process here for TSMC to match/beat Intel process in any case), the cheaper chip will win, and AMD always starts price wars (stupidly IMHO) at launches when they should be charging as much as they can get at launch until SOMEONE else starts that war (INTC/NVDA I mean). You seem confused about what I actually posted. I was very clear however with dates, launches, net income, pricing mistakes by AMD, R&D money, die sizes, what I’m planning on buying etc. How much data do I have to give to make the point clear? I feel like I’m repeating myself at this point when people should just READ the post (again? If you didn't get it) ;) You asked me to consider stuff, I already covered, albeit without mass granular detail that would bore most to death anyway :) What about my first post said to you that I'm ignorant here? If nothing is HVM basically until 2020 (xmas puny chips don't count IMHO, as it's a low volume product chosen), I'm right.
I'm not confusing the discrete gpu coming (supposedly) 2020 and don't think that will be worth much anyway. Hardware is not enough, and I've seen multiple failures in gpu stuff from Intel over the years (I sold i740 for a while). You need great drivers all year too (game ready for big AAA launches etc), and this I think will be lacking for Intel based on MUCH previous experience with their crap. They can't even take down plucky little AMD apu's and they've had YEARS to get that done. Always losing to a company with 1B R&D...LOL, never mind NV R&D and wads of cash in the bank to fight on gpu fronts.
You are the one that stated if 10nm is not in desktops, wasting time. To be honest - your comment seems like if it is Intel then you wasting time - so be a kind person and leave you comments to AMD articles. Just for information, I notice in other articles that AMD 7nm will not be ready in 2nd half of 2019.
nm size is not everything, 10nm is only small part of Intel change coming in 2nd half of 2019 - likely 4th quarter - holiday season does not mean Dec 25th, it means before that like Fall 2019.
But with Ice Lake - it not just the stupid process - but architxture which is more signficant than the process - adding more cache and excution units.
By this article, Intel is not going low productions - not only notebooks and surely desktop - because that is where AMD fans like to fight - but also in servers and low end and next year will attack in GPU - likely ready for CES 2020. Intel is preparing to do not a Tick or a Tock - but this time they are combining Tick and Tock - mean both Process and Architexture change in a single releases.
For me, my XPS 15 2in1 will last me to late 2019 or 2020, we are going to see signifcant change in performance with this new breed. To me Sunny Cove looks like Intel's most signficant Architexture change possible even surpassing the original i series from old Pentium 4 and Core 2 days
More information on Sunny Cove can be found in this article
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13832/amd-radeon-vi... NEW INFO First and foremost, 7nm announced today on stage, but GPU (331mm) Radeon VII. So TSMC working, we’ll see about cpu, but they can clearly do a cpu too as this GPU is 331mm^2 and that would be a fairly LARGE cpu die from AMD. But this does mean 7nm DESKTOP cpu WELL before XMAS, stating Q2/Q3 (back to school). MATISSE (mid2019 stated). The GPU is here early I guess since they just re-used MI60 chips for quick release (yield good, or left over?) https://www.anandtech.com/show/13829/amd-ryzen-3rd... So, adding this info above as I’ve been reading on/off all day (CES crap). So again, AMD 7nm CPU READY Mid2019.
We are talking HVM, which I called BS until a HVM product is out the door, such as a desktop for instance as noted. Or heck, "insert any HVM larger die product" you want which would mean HVM is a go! Intel has claimed (apparently) that they have ANY HVM product capability, which again, I see NONE and a SMALL product in pretty low volume doesn't scream "success, we've done it for ALL chips, even the larger ones"...Uh, no, or start producing some!
I said what I WANTED in a desktop from Intel (10nm! which again is high volume) or stated I'd buy AMD and if you're waiting on Intel, might as well take AMD 12core etc right (12/16 core will require 7nm to be effective from tsmc surely)? I gave an argument based on perf/process of the alternative, which to me seems very reasonable (it’s the only other choice in town). We see how far Intel is getting with 14nm (8 core finally mainstream? Not really at $478!), and 10nm MAY enable Intel to do a decent 12 core, but we’ll see vs. 7nm AMD from TSMC with it seems, up to 16 core on mainstream boards (room on ryzen2 (3rd gen) for another 8core chiplet) and If AMD IPC claims are true, a decent upgrade from the current story playing out. Assumed leaks say 12/16 core just moved down from HEDT to mainstream boards with AMD at some point. It will be fun to see Intel 10nm response (cancel a chipset at release again? LOL, my 6 core+Board was dead the day I bought it), just like it was fun watching pathetic 9900k/9700k etc. They had to turn HT off just to cherry pick enough for 8core/16 thread model IMHO. IE, even though they turned off ½ the threads, cache, etc, 9700k uses the same watts? How bad are your yields if you have to drop ½ threads & slow it down to hit 95w still (anandtech discussed this issue of yields and LVM too)? Is it the same core too, so you disabled 4MB of cache maybe to get yields up? No reason to leave it out as 9700k, slower, ½ threads is no competition for the chip above it and again, 95w with all this downgrading? Smells like yield issues even here at 14nm, never mind you moved production to SERVER, because you can’t keep up with demand already (thus hiring TSMC for some 14nm help…Not good either).
Pentium 4 is a great chip now, and you were excited by it? https://www.anandtech.com/show/1611/6 Crash landing, failure says Anandtech 2005 (many others they wrote too, like everyone). https://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/Yes-Netburst-... Netburst arch, REALLY was that BAD…I could go on, as every review site said this at some point. You imply this is a tech that was some kind of amazing achievement. I disagree, as does the whole web. “ridiculously huge pipeline”. You’ve never heard of PRESSHOT? Cooking with Intel? ROFL.
Intel has been promising 10nm for over 2yrs (late 2016, as noted in above article from extremetech) and now seems 3yrs late if xmas 2019 for even a SMALL chip, not really HVM as Anandtech even noted. Now you think they'll get a HVM gpu out the door for CES in Jan 2020? You’re aware they’ll be 3yrs late with 10nm at xmas right (I said it before and here again)? They failed with i740, they failed with larrabee, drivers have NEVER been good on Intel (I know I sold i740 as a PC biz I had for a decade) discrete or integrated, etc. What in Intel's history says "this time it will work" and the design time is super-fast here? I think H2 at best for discrete from Intel gpu dept based on no cpu in 2019 for HVM lager dies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_grap... List of companies that have attempted to take on NV/AMD (er, ATI?) and failed, which BTW have mostly been gobbled up by AMD/NV. Please can you provide a link to info that says Intel will get it right where EVERYONE has failed before for 20yrs no matter the size of their budget, including INTEL? What has change THIS time?
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-xe-gpu-spe... Clearly states Intel discrete gpu will be 10nm (Intel said it), and 2020 while I don’t think they meant Jan. OK, so you think Jan 2020 CES for a LARGE chip that will compete with AMD/NV cards at, spitballing here, 300mm^2+? It will be competing with faster chips than current 12nm 445mm^2 dies @10.8B transistors (never mind ridiculous reticle limit 2080ti chips, titans etc). Both NV/AMD will have gpus at 7nm, so you have to perform even faster than these right? Intel can’t put out a 200mm^2 die at 10nm and think it will catch much larger dies on TSMC 7nm. It would appear NV will wait on 7nm until 2020 (no competition in high end this whole year, AMD going low die size THIS year), but that is to put out another reticle limit top end chip again like 2080ti and raising prices after a cut surely when AMD hits 7nm. I mean, 754mm^2 is really pushing limits on yields here, 18.6B transistors and that would even be BIG at 7nm if you just shrunk this (~400-500mm^2?). https://insidehpc.com/2018/12/7nm-gpu-fastest-rade... AMD 7nm MI60 gpu is 331m @13.2B, so major reduction from NV 18.6B, so again guessing Intel will be competing with NV ~450mm^2 or so (mid of my guess? Though NV probably does better than AMD here, so ~400? Whatever it’s big) if they go 18.6B or more based on AMD 331 7nm from the same process and I’ll be shocked if NV’s 3080ti (guessed name, whatever) will be less than 20B transistors and I’d guess much higher. I’d be shocked if AMD doesn’t get navi 10 out by July, and may hit early Q2 as MI60 is Q1 for purchase. They said MI60 was a pipe cleaner (smaller 331 die, but on a low volume HIGH margin product in PRO stuff), signaling a LARGER die size on at least some model for desktop later in the works right (NAVI10 is small, so not the chip discussed here)? You don’t have to pipeclean for a small desktop gpu chip, you do it for a LARGE model coming soon. AMD/Intel/NV routinely put out smaller laptops first, pipecleaning for future larger models on new processes. You are living in a fantasy world if Intel is putting out the first “supposedly” HVM 10nm small chips for xmas devices not back to school, which MIGHT make your point valid. It’s XMAS, so AFTER sept or you’d say back to school, and gpu has been said to be H2 2020. Intel isn’t dumb going after poor, there is no money in it, ask AMD (Navi10…LOL, puny). Intel will attempt to chase NV high end for margins, which means BIG, and that isn’t coming in Jan as a pipecleaner is not what is coming for xmas from Intel. It will likely be under 150mm^2, not 331 like AMD pipecleaner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Lake_(microar... Cannon lake, shown running CES2017, but delayed to 2018, then CES 2018, shipping would ramp 2018, ooops, April 2018, shipping LOW VOL 10nm & cannon would be delayed AGAIN to LATE Q2 2019. It’s in a nuc now, but we’re talking a 70mm^2 dual core chip here and NUC’s don’t sell volume anyway. How many people do you know that own HTPC’s? These are less than that and expensive for a puny weak dual core (~$540). As noted they’ve been fighting yields and costs due to them sucking. They only produced ONE model AFAIK. https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1371/a-look-at-inte... Architecture is important but no more so than shrinks and process upgrades (Intel 14, 14+, 14++ etc) as these allow massive watt drops, transistors, and shrinking die sizes to make more money. IE, from 4th to 5th gen on Intel, you got 35% more transistors and a 37% smaller die size (131 down to 82mm^2, and .96B to 1.3B transistors). Not sure how you can just discount this side of the equation and act like it’s just a “stupid process”…LOL. OK. You trolling me? Processes are stupid? C’mon man. Discrete gpu 2020 in January? Are you an Intel shareholder (I have been, not now) with wishful thinking or what? If Intel won’t even put out a “tentative” release date, it’s not JAN 2020. Why would you say something as non-specific as 2020, if you meant Jan, or at worst Q1? Heck they could have said H1 2020. You say 2020 when you have no idea yet as of CES 2019 speeches. NO date, just 2020. I’m sure they’re praying for Jan, but not unless they’re chasing poor people like AMD, and that is NOT Intel’s style. Also note, Intel was supposed to be on 10+ by now and 10++ this year. https://www.anandtech.com/show/11722/intel-reveals... https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1910/intel-looks-to... “A big part of keeping up the improvements to the system architecture remains the process technology.” AGREE, and the 10nm “stupid process” has held up the entire company product line right? But who needs this process crap…LOL. “Process technology details are almost always kept secret until released due to competitive reasons.” Well, if it is just “stupid process” junk, why the heck do you think Intel guards it so closely until RELEASE? GF process has literally killed a product or two. But no, not very important even though they can literally CRUSH your product launch. Just ask Intel. They are getting less out of process today than 10yrs ago, but it’s still worth a lot. We’re done here, as I’m realizing responding to your comment is kind of a joke at this point (perhaps on me for doing it…LOL), but for anyone buying these stocks, it’s relevant info anyway and I have to do the homework like it or not (or lose money) ;)
Blame everyone else for your problems, write a ton of shit no one cares about or will read, and then blame everyone for that too. You definitely aren't mentally unstable.
"Intel also demonstrated how users will be able to play with its amped-up Gen II integrated graphics. Unfortunately, Intel didn't disclose any setting that they were playing the game at."
Anandtech calls no roadmaps open? NO settings open? Did they say anything of SUBSTANCE today? I've been reading Intel crap for an hour and still don't see any data from CES 2019. I see 2018 repeat.
The article you mention states "the last of which is capable of powering a 4K display." This is related to Ice Lake. it sounds like a significant improvement on current integrated graphics - but 2020 will have new platform that competes with both NVidia and AMD on discrete graphics level.
yes, please! i had a SP2 way back when and it would have been my perfect machine if it had a quadcore CPU, more RAM, and provision for better graphics. the newer models check the CPU and memory upgrade, all it's missing now is eGPU capability.
On the Foveros chip, I was thinking for gen 2 of HoloLens. It'd let them carryover the work that went into the first one with the Atom cores, give it some more performance maybe when plugged in, and the GPU would likely be a big benefit for such a device. I think rumors point to HoloLens moving to ARM though. On the forums someone suggested Courier (which I believe Microsoft has said they are going to release as a consumer product at some point). It'd be good for tablets. I think it'd be good for standalone AR/VR headsets too. I could see it being a chip for the normal Macbook, or some hybrid iOS/Mac OS device that might function like the Surface Book, with the tablet portion having an Apple SoC, and then the base having this running MacOS. Its a neat chip that could fit quite a few devices. Likely more premium stuff though, but sounds like Intel is thinking up twists on that type of chip, so maybe we'll get some reference designs.
Yes it sounds like Foveros Chip would be good for HoloLens Gen 2 - but also it would good route for low end laptops like using Pentium chips - think about what most people use laptops for - spreadsheets and word processor - so higher performance core chip would be good for that in primary thread and atom chips for other multi-processing. I would expect OS vendors like Microsoft will possibly have changes to optimized this. I would also not doubt - AMD will likely have a similar component one day.
Interesting comment about iOS/Mac OS - with EMiB like in my XPS 15 2in1 - they code have Core CPU in combine with Apple SoC one day for Hybrid - who knows this could already be in plans
“Also in the 9th Gen space, Intel said that the mobile 9th Gen Core processors will be available in Q2.” Right so looks like will be two Gaming laptop released this year, RTX mobile & 8th gen CPU (end jan) and then wouldn’t be surprised that Q3 has RTX mobile and 9th Gen CPU gaming laptops, think will just wait till towards end of year before getting a gaming laptop
Intel announcing products a year in advance now promising desktop 10nm by H2. Well, we all know what happened to the W3175X promised to be out in 2018 at Computex last year, announced October 8th to be available in December, yet still nowhere to be found, not even on Intels own product pages. I think its a good bet we'll be well into 2020 before we see any 10nm desktop parts on the shelves anywhere.
I think Intel is fully aware of last year or so supply issues and making changes in process so that Holiday season 2019 is a real possibly - now desktop 10nm is very likely a lower priority than mobile 10nm - this article sounds like a very positive indication that 10nm is reality for 2019 in large quantities. Combine with articles about Intel investments in FAB and Sunny Cove announcement - it seams like a sure bet in 2019.
Why do you assume that Lakefield is for PC, have they stated that? Could be a number of other things since in PC, a single big core and high cost is not that appealing and super low idle is not all that relevant. Unless for some foldable phone/tab.
Actually a single big core is not a good choice for a phone either, if someone wants x86 there, they need 2 cores at least. My guess would be Tesla for infotainment but would rather see console grade gaming in cars not this crap.
I doubt it'd be the Automotive segment. They're not highly volume or idle power constrained; and already have a crapload of arm chips for all sorts of embedded control systems.
They are very power constrained, far more than laptop even with EVs because charging is slow, the infrastructure limited and batteries are costly.. And cars are about 80 million units per year so as high vols as laptops but much higher ASPs as the product needs to be a lot more reliable. Plus, the PC has no future, sales will be 0 in less than 10 years.
years ago, the CEO of Intel (don't recall which one) said, "I'd rather have my chip in every Ford than every PC".
"Even basic vehicles have at least 30 of these microprocessor-controlled devices, known as electronic control units, and some luxury cars have as many as 100."
Also the definition of "PC" keeps changing in these claims. Do they mean desktop, or laptop? What about a ChromeBook or MacBook - is that a PC? You can put linux on a ChromeBook now, so it's evolving towards being a general purpose PC rather than away. TVs and consoles are also gradually turning into PCs.
it's surely arguable that most users of 'desktop' computers can do wordprocessing, email, and spreadsheets on a 1995 cpu. it would appear that only high-stakes gamers and the occasional data scientist really need Intel/AMD latest silicon.
I think you are thinking of ARM based CPU's - where multiple big cores maybe be required - for decades we have single core x86 base CPU and having addition smaller core for idle tasks would be benefit. I would believe that a single large core combine with 4 atom cores would be just as good a 2 large cores. Remember these are Sunny Core cores which are significantly faster than current cores.
" I would believe that a single large core combine with 4 atom cores would be just as good a 2 large cores. "
it remains true that 99.44% of applications are single-threaded, and embarrassingly parallel problems are as rare as hen's teeth. remember lo those few years ago when it was asserted that clock speed was as fast as possible and needed? all we'd need was more threads/cores. hasn't worked out that way. having lots o cores to run lots o apps at the 'same time' is a totally different problem, and GPU seems to have solved much of that.
I believe we are in alignment - but it will be interesting to see how Foveres lines up - I know we say my Samsung Galaxy S3 - 4 large core and 4 small cores are part of designed - but an ARM core is much less powerful core than a Core based x86 core.
As developer for 30 years, most of application depend on primary thread especially with user interface - and I can see how GPU could be more beneficial in have more units. But threads usually except for heavy compute situation are primary in idle state in most applications. For example check network connection for update status - or monitor a file - or post a message or something - typically a big while loop while thread is active - do something and go to sleep and repeat.
Even in heavy compute system, it would be better designed to break the task into chunks and let the thread - more yield of task, A lot of depends on OS - is very likely in same application - that it is all running on same core - it very possible that it requires additional logic to run it on additional core. I could see games using threads for AI and update character / bot movement on the playing field. How effective directly depends on how the OS is written and how the game is written. In addition it depends on how the CPU is designed - it possibly using more cores on system may actually slow things down for multiple reasons - system may run them at lower speed - plus what it takes to maintain the threads. But if believe it better to have less higher speed cores than more less powerful cores. But I also believe it much better if you need multiple cores - that it better to spread them across multiple CPU's. For example a quad cpu 8 core system would beat a single cpu 32 core system or a dual 16 core system. Because the cores can be run at higher speed.
The big question are we solving the problem of technology by throwing more cores into the picture, or should the architexture be change to make existing cores more efficient - this does not just mean clock speed - this is why the Sunny Cove changes in Ice Lake - look so exciting - it stead of patching the problem with more cores and higher frequency - revolutionize the design of system to handle the problem better.
Well like anything else on internet - this is my opinion - but part of those 30 years include 7 years of OS development and schooling include some Microprocessor design even though that was in 80's but I try to keep up with latest and that is why I come to forums like this.
"Intel also mentioned software support, such as the new VNNI instructions, openVINO toolkit support, Cryptographic ISA instructions, and support for Overworld."
What is Overworld? The slide says OverWolf but even so what is that?
In the original Legend of Zelda, the Overworld was the exterior areas above any dungeon in which a piece of the Triforce was stored. I presume this means that Intel is ensuring software support for such top-level areas, but refuses to actually do anything to reassemble the Triforce.
"A lot of discussion has been held that this was an Apple request, and given Apple’s device portfolio, its volume of sales, and its desire to drive down power with optimized unique designs, the argument for Apple holds some water. But it doesn't sit right with me. This is more a low-powered chip, perhaps even lower power than the A12X in the iPads, so I don’t think Apple would want that chip in one of its MacBooks."
I'm going with Microsoft. Seems perfect for a next-gen Surface Go.Current one is clocked too low, weak GPU, and dual-core with no HT. The Foveros 10nm SoC would give them an improvement so many ways: lower idle power draw, probably a better GPU, increased core count with the Tremont cores, and likely a much higher clock on the Sunny Cove core for single core burst duties than they have on the current 1.6GHz Pentium Gold.
Given that Qualcomm is a long way from matching Apple's A12 performance, Lakefield in Surface Go seems like a perfect fit.
"This is surprising, given that Intel is usually conservative with supported memory speed declarations – they still make a DDR4-2933 processor in their lineup – so jumping to 3200 would indeed be an unexpected shift for the company."
Frequency increase of 9% is not jump, it is a tiny half-step. But LPDDR4x instead of hopelessly outdated and power-hungry DDR4 is a very different matter, both in mobile and (would be) server space.
Are there no moderators here? I come to the comments for thoughtful tech discussion on article, usually the author joins in. Instead, I find walls of text ranting and screaming.
AMD already has 64 cores and 128 thread processors on 10 nm(whom they call 7 nm:))) and Intel now ..gets big money with their non-linear chips:12 cores,18 cores,etc
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
60 Comments
Back to Article
TheJian - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
"The fact that Intel has achieved HVM with *any* 10nm product" as quoted at wccftech.I call BS until I can buy a 10nm DESKTOP chip. This even, is only coming for xmas 2019? LOL. HVM is I can BUY TODAY, or you're lying. I think they can do ONE chip, this one, which I think is Ice-Lake U, so very small compared to desktops. Again, I call BS if they can't make a ~200-300mm^2 desktop. Not ANY chip IMHO if you choose a very small one to HVM and then only for xmas, so just starting today even for the small chips? Is it even HVM yet for this one? Xmas is 12 months away, you only need to pile up a launch for a few months, so should be in a box by sept, back to school etc. If it's xmas I think this is just trying to stop shares prices from dropping due to yet another 10nm delay speech. Either way, 10nm hopes are now 2020 I guess for us desktop people, or do like me and buy 7nm AMD this year ;) I really doubt Intel 10nm will be much better if at all, than TSMC 7nm and 5nm TSMC a year later...LOL. Intel better hurry with 7nm or they've lost the fab race IMHO (said they were losing it 5yrs ago many times, here anandtech, seekingalpha etc). Good for AMD, but bad for America as I don't really want china/arabs winning fab wars vs. america.
I'm really hoping AMD can put out a great 12core (main desktop), and buy a few 8 core apu for HTPC's for xmas (will upgrade board/mem/apu at xmas in 2-3 htpcs). Get 7nm out the door amd, and you have 2-4 cpus sold to my family :) I'm not waiting for 10nm Intel with more mitigations slowing me down again and probably still not solved in hardware totally. AMD has issues too, but more of them require you to be AT the desk to do damage, where with Intel you can do a lot of damage remotely.
"greater execution capability is now part of the architecture"
This whole speech seems like no info. What the heck is this? Are you saying you build worse execution capability into chips on purpose before? Is this not the goal of ALL cpu/gpu enhancements? More execution ability? I'm confused...LOL. I've heard of TRUSTED execution, but what is "greater" execution ability built in? You google that you get nothing. I'm feeling like 2019 Intel CES speech was a repeat of 2018 (nothing burger). Until I see a 10nm desktop, whatever man.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13774/intels-keynot...
As anandtech says, these are the smallest chips to balance yield/cost. So HVM with terrible yields then? So you have to go SMALL...Is it HVM for ALL if you can't do anything but PUNY chips or they are too expensive to ship? TSMC has HVM for A12x (122mm^2), which is probably in the realm of the size of this chip based on previous die sizes of U chips. Again, not impressed Intel. Wake me when you put out 10nm desktops above 200mm^2 at least and AMD's coming cards have chips in the mid 200's or so it seems again at 7nm TSMC.
"Terms like ‘5G’ and ‘Artificial Intelligence’ are only going to become more ubiquitous through 2020 and beyond, so Intel is jumping on it today."
You're a little late, as everyone else is ALREADY here. See Nvidia etc. Is Intel available today, or 2020?
"With Project Athena, Intel is going to discuss with OEMs, with partners, customers, software developers, etc. what they need in order to enable these new terms to provide a good user experience."
"As this is a new program based in aspirational discussion followed by execution"
Yeah, like I said, nothing burger again. We're about to "discuss" what we might JUMP ON, at a later date when we "EXECUTE" what we "DISCUSS" with oems etc...LOL. How about EXECUTING on some 10nm DESKTOP chips? Never mind, I can just buy AMD 7nm 12 core this year and a gen I won't mind gaming on finally ;) I just hope AMD prices to them make some NET INCOME finally so they can R&D 5nm etc going forward. You can't do that on <100mil a quarter vs. NV (1B a Q) or Intel (never mind...LOL). Price LIKE YOUR WINNING AMD! Not like some discount 2nd rate Intel. IF you win nearly every benchmark at 7nm vs. Intel 14nm (the case for another year probably if they release shortly), PRICE ABOVE Intel. PERIOD. No point in discounting chips if you're WINNING watts/perf. Make hay while the sun shines! Sell to the RICH or continue to be POOR AMD. Ask NV/Intel what this means (HEDT, Titan, 2080ti etc).
CajunArson - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
Wow you are clearly butthurt and scared.Anyway, instead of a wall of text here's a fact: if you dropped Intel's non-volatile memory division.. you know the division that makes the "failed" Optane into AMD, then it would be by far the largest and most profitable segment of the company.
And at Intel they call that division a "side hustle".
TheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Not even sure what you mean by butthurt or scared? Irrelevant post. How about attacking the data? Typical Democrat post ;) Attack data, not the person. Not sure what Optane has to do with AMD, but I do own micron stock (and AMD...LOL), and am UP double (16.77 avg price of my shares), so I'll be laughing when 3dxpoint crap hits next year anyway :) MU/NVDA both great pics (1/2 off in both vs. recent highs), and AMD though risky, not really until Intel gets it's act together in the next 12-18 months. IE, 7nm vs. Intel 14nm is a loser for Intel until then if AMD gets them out soon that is, and never mind what happens with 64core 7nm vs. Intel 14nm 48 core. That's a bloodbath for Intel IMHO, and don't think 10nm Intel will fix it. I think this brings you even maybe, but 5nm right after on TSMC anyway maybe even beating Intel again to 7nm so keeping the lead. Time will tell.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier...
Please read the pic, then understand how to respond :) You don't know how to debate. You lose.
SpartanJet - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I think you meant typical republican post. Lie about everything and hide your head in the sand when science is involved.PeachNCream - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Not sure Anandtech's article comments are an appropriate venue for something involving American politics.FunBunny2 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
trade wars and IP fights and the like aren't??? of course it is. there's a reason Apple's China Syndrome has crashed and burned. much of that is due to politics: Apple decamped production to China, and other off-shore facilities, because politics encouraged it. politics matter.PeachNCream - Wednesday, January 9, 2019 - link
There are other places for that kind of discussion.TheJian - Wednesday, January 9, 2019 - link
You just proved my point. Blah, blah, blah, I hate you, you suck, you didn't say it right, you lie, blah blah, I have no data, but again, you suck and I'm right...LOL. That is all I'm hearing as you said nothing more.Please be more specific. What science is ignored? When did the topic change to science anyway (I’m talking process and failed chips)?
OK, as a republican (er, only because I have to register with someone, to vote in a presidential primary), what in my post was a lie?
How about you attack the data in MY post instead of shifting topics like all dems do when faced with an actual argument. I’m supposed to defend republican posts I’m not even aware of now? I pointed out exactly what he did and BTW he did nothing but change topics to irrelevant junk not remotely related to my post regarding Intel’s failures in chips/process. However, I addressed his irrelevant comment anyway…LOL.
How'd we NOW get to science and lies (is that relevant to my post?)? The OP responded to my post with "butthurt and scared"...WHAT? Again, this is the point I made with my "typical dem post" reply. ;) The OP responded to me dismantling the article, with, but but but, if Optane (who brought that up?) was part of AMD it would be the largest and most profitable segment of that company. How did we go from “failure of Intel process, and defective chips” to “er uh, that memory tech Intel has (that they’ve failed to successfully launch too BTW), is awesome and AMD sucks because they don’t have it”? Again, he proved my point. I have no comment on what you ACTUALLY said, so here’s my shiny object…LOL. Comic, you just did the same thing. I can’t make an argument, so er, uh, you lie and don’t like science! LOL.
Read my post you responded to, where I gave a link that tells you how to form an argument so we can have a reasonable debate about something, rather than crap like you posted which only serves to PROVE my point yet AGAIN. You have not provided an argument (rather an opinion backed by nothing), and thus have nothing for me to debate...
Can you provide an actual argument on science or lies? I see nothing. Then again, that isn’t even addressing my post either (which the OP ignored too), but I’d like to see you actual attempt to make a REAL point…LOL. Please stick to content in MY post, as it's not my job to defend OTHERS not relevant to what I said anyway :)
sorten - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
Too much shouting.TheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier...Figure out how this comment crap works ;) Who cares how I say it, it's the data that counts. You remind me of crazy AOC comments like:
“I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right,”
Uh, yeah, I don't give a rats behind about what people think about my MORALS (or shouting...LOL). I care about getting the DATA and FACTS right. You should too, regardless of how it's said, or how the text looks. Be thankful I didn't cap it all...ROFL.
KateH - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
dude, what?first off, what on earth does this have to do with "china and arabs" vs "america"?
TSMC = based in Taiwan (it's even in the name)
GlobalFoundaries = based in California
second off, .... uhh nevermind. <facepalm>
TheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
America First pal ;) I'd rather have INTEL win than ANYONE from Korea or controlled by Arabs who spend a ton of money on terrorism, more than any other group in the world. Even allies like Saudi’s/UAE do it.https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinion...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2...
Global Foundries is ATIC...LOL. Face palm. You don't read past the product label do you? Just google ATIC fab global foundries. WE don't own it in USA (who owns you matters, not where you park the building), as AMD sold it ages ago.
If another president takes over before trump breaks the China economy more, they will RULE many things if they keep stealing us blind and we keep giving up jobs. At some point we might be speaking Chinese in 20-50yrs (their plan is just that!). Trump is reversing that though, we had 16 steel factories before, then down to 4 up to Obama (nafta, China WTO entrance etc did this 70,000 factories close over this stuff). Back to 10 now already and growing. IF the wall is made of steel, more will re-open. Go 100% block, and they go bankrupt quick.
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article...
If another pres gets in wall street will just tell them to stop China trade war (politicians are usually easily bought), and go back to fleecing of America. A few years down the road they take over NK, Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, etc with a president that acts like Obama when Russia took Crimea (gave them tents...LOL, instead of GUNS/AMMO).
OH, and MU (a stock I own) bought a company in Taiwan, and they had traitors there working for China to STEAL tech.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/prc-state-owned-com...
See the lawsuit FTC/DOJ just nailed them on. So, even NOT conquered, you still can't trust stuff that is CHINA related in ANY way, including Taiwan. You should be VERY careful with anyone owned or operated by Chinese. They are buying up Silicon Valley to steal everything too. IE, startups being bought right and left, to send it all home to China after we build it all.
https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/business/artic...
Traitors. Did you notice its Taiwan employees STEALING tech for CHINA (we’re talking Executive level here)? Nice local rundown of everything in the case. Currently China is blocked from buying AMAT or Lam Research tools that would allow them to compete with USA (can’t make high end stuff). But a loser president could change all that. A fighter like trump will stop it, at least for 6 more years if he builds that wall but if not, likely not elected again as that was the MAJOR campaign promise. Oh, and Limbaugh, Colter, Bongino etc will attack constantly as Rush already did it for 2 days on the wall saying trump was caving, trump let him know he wasn’t. Clearly both of these and more will attack, and trump will go down. Together, a few pundits can end trump if he doesn’t build the wall with the size of their audiences. A LOT of people will hear the message and vote him out. He was worried enough to comment on Rush’s two day bashing ;) Good, he should be worried. Fortunately the MU tech stolen was OLD anyway.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-05...
Taiwan president and people afraid, and China thinks they OWN Taiwan (80% thinks China can piss off, 20% side with China though…ouch). Do you read news? Building Military islands to take over the trade routes etc. Google Xi Jinping’s proposal for unification. Uh, sounds like they want it all ;)
https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/artic...
The article title says it all doesn’t it?
“The day a US Navy vessel arrives in Kaohsiung is the day that our People’s Liberation Army unifies Taiwan with military force,” he told mainland media. OK, so they are actually saying they’re looking for an excuse to take them over…LOL.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. Google China 2050 plan (must get Taiwan back by then). Nuff said? Stop watching fake news and READ more. :)
wut - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Why in the world are you posting all that here? It's not even directly related to the topic. You are wasting your time... I'm trying to help you, by the way. Post all that in a different topic, like under comments section of a political article and/or an article talking about intellectual property.Otherwise, you'd likely to be ignored. Why waste your breath.
cheshirster - Wednesday, January 9, 2019 - link
It is actually China and Korea vs AmericaSantoval - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
As Lord Polonius had said, "Brevity is the soul of wit".TheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
So I should take advice from a pompous idiot character from a Shakespeare book? Nah...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier...
Next time say something worthwhile. There's a pic explaining EXACTLY how you do that. Which you didn't even get on the chart IMHO, but I guess someone could think you made the 1st or 2nd level...LOL.
Retycint - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Using ALL CAPS on words does not make your point stronger, it just exposes your vitriolbji - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Used for single words or small phrases just adds emphasis to those words. That was not an ALL CAPS post, so get off your high horse.TheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
You consider it shouting, I don't. That is YOUR problem, not mine. You assume vitriol, but you don't even know me...LOL. I don't think it makes my point stronger, I think it gets your attention. It did, or you wouldn't be whining about it RIGHT? ;)So you just did the same thing...Whatever. That must be vitriol, you mad bro? ROFLMAO. What exactly was cruel or bitter about my criticism of a site CLEARLY (see what I did there?) lacking in data that users of these cards would WANT to know? Anandtech hasn't wronged me personally in some way (I know they lie a lot & mislead the readers even more - but it doesn't hurt my purchases etc, I ignore the fake news...LOL), they are misleading their entire audience for ages as I noted clear back to 660ti and before. I just finally got figured people should be aware of the REAL data, and posted for 660ti and many times since. I guess all the LOL/ROFL, grins, winks etc are lost on some of you people :) It is typical of libtards to tell you to shut up, or "you can't say that", etc instead of following this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hier...
...So you can actually form a REAL argument to debate someone. As Jordan Peterson said, you can't discuss things without risking offending people. I don't care if you're offended by my caps nor what you perceive as "vitriol"...ROFL. Crawl back under your rock until you can figure out how to form an argument please. You're wasting my time ;)
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I am surprise how people are so blind and believe that everything revolves around the desktops like in the 90's. Also it is important that we compare apples to apples - not Intel 14mm vs 7nm - we should comparing Intel 10nm vs 7nm. It also important one company 7nm vs 10nm does mean it better - it is important to note that nm rating is process and can vary per vendor. It also important to note architexture changes - and it likely Intel's new Sunny Cove could beat AMD even on 14nm.10nm is coming this year and high volume by holiday season. I think you are confusing 2020 date with new GPU from Intel.
It would be foolish to believe that Intel is not coming back strong after AMD efforts with Ryzen. 2019 is going to be exciting year even with desktops on 10nm. Keep in mind that with CPU's using less and less power, it likely one day - desktop chips will be same as mobile chips.
Please no CAPs - it just reminds me to much of Wccftech and is not reliable.
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
One more - I predict in 2020 (maybe even in late 2019) AMD will be seriously going back to drawing boardsTheJian - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Who here believes everything revolves around desktops? I want one soon on 7nm, but I think servers/hedt are what matters, along with jacked up laptops (well, ok, everything above $300 matters…ROFL, where 80% of the NET INCOME comes from that is). HIGH margin is what I've been telling AMD to chase for ages. I never said wccftech was reliable...In fact I've said the opposite, but that doesn't mean they get everything wrong. However my 1st sentence after the quote is I think their article is BS...Did you read the post or get hung up on a few caps? LOL. I said the same thing about wccftech article on AMD pricing in the Navi post (I quoted them in 2060 or AMD CES news, then called the article quoted BS). Even they don't believe their own rumors on that one...LOL. Not sure what caps have to do with reliability. GET over it.Is Intel 10nm out in volume? NOPE, why would I compare something that won't even arrive until xmas vs. 7nm AMD coming before it? As I stated, I don't believe they can make anything else but a small chip on 10nm due to LOW volume they use. NO different than AMD/NVDA doing the same with mobile etc gpu first then reticle limit (for NV anyway) after. YIELDS matter. Anandtech all but says it here too. Yay, we agree on something anandtech ;)
I know the tech matters, which is why Intel stumbled at 10nm. They shot too high (like HBM vs. GDDR5x, hard and new tools vs. simple with same tools), and failed for 2yrs now, 3 if xmas. So they shot low with 7nm to speed the process up and avoid bumps in the road. If AMD has 7nm or shortly, EVERY review will be vs. Intel 14nm chips until xmas, and even then as noted (including anandtech noting it), it's a low volume part and puny, meaning easy to produce even on a crap bad process with defect city. Also, 7nm TSMC vs. Intel 14 IS better, even if TSMC process is not as good per gen. Intel's 10nm will merely bring things to an even playing field vs. TSMC 7nm. Intel will be possibly slightly better (not looking that way now), but it won't be squashing AMD or TSMC any time soon. That will take over a year (likely 18mo+), and even then 5nm will be here for TSMC, so Intel 7nm (like TSMC 7nm as they took the easy way out, unlike usually aggressive due to 10nm failure) won't win any races really. They admitted they cut corners to speed it up. TSMC is actually making Intel chips due to 14nm shortages due to 10nm being screwed so long. You don't see the humor in this point? ;) But yeah, nm, density, gates, etc all mean a lot. But I get the tech, so point wasted on me, unless you have something that says Intel 10nm is great...WTH are you talking about?
No desktops will never be replaced for power users. I guess you haven't been around for the last 30+ years of this crap, as it is all ~80-120w on desktops, and usually ~85-95w. Let me know when your laptop can take that heat/watts. What cpu on top is using less power on desktops or servers? I see them all aimed at ~85w-120w pretty much at launch for every gen.
I said AMD only had 12-18 months in my post to make hay while the sun shines, IE, before Intel comes back if they can. But TSMC is on a roll lately, w/tapeouts, risk production etc, 5nm on track, 7nm out the door massively for apple etc. If Intel 7nm hits and tsmc 5nm very close time wise, the bleeding won't stop for Intel for a while past 12-18mo. In an even race in fabs (I'm admitting it takes a smaller process here for TSMC to match/beat Intel process in any case), the cheaper chip will win, and AMD always starts price wars (stupidly IMHO) at launches when they should be charging as much as they can get at launch until SOMEONE else starts that war (INTC/NVDA I mean). You seem confused about what I actually posted. I was very clear however with dates, launches, net income, pricing mistakes by AMD, R&D money, die sizes, what I’m planning on buying etc. How much data do I have to give to make the point clear? I feel like I’m repeating myself at this point when people should just READ the post (again? If you didn't get it) ;) You asked me to consider stuff, I already covered, albeit without mass granular detail that would bore most to death anyway :) What about my first post said to you that I'm ignorant here? If nothing is HVM basically until 2020 (xmas puny chips don't count IMHO, as it's a low volume product chosen), I'm right.
I'm not confusing the discrete gpu coming (supposedly) 2020 and don't think that will be worth much anyway. Hardware is not enough, and I've seen multiple failures in gpu stuff from Intel over the years (I sold i740 for a while). You need great drivers all year too (game ready for big AAA launches etc), and this I think will be lacking for Intel based on MUCH previous experience with their crap. They can't even take down plucky little AMD apu's and they've had YEARS to get that done. Always losing to a company with 1B R&D...LOL, never mind NV R&D and wads of cash in the bank to fight on gpu fronts.
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
You are the one that stated if 10nm is not in desktops, wasting time. To be honest - your comment seems like if it is Intel then you wasting time - so be a kind person and leave you comments to AMD articles. Just for information, I notice in other articles that AMD 7nm will not be ready in 2nd half of 2019.nm size is not everything, 10nm is only small part of Intel change coming in 2nd half of 2019 - likely 4th quarter - holiday season does not mean Dec 25th, it means before that like Fall 2019.
But with Ice Lake - it not just the stupid process - but architxture which is more signficant than the process - adding more cache and excution units.
By this article, Intel is not going low productions - not only notebooks and surely desktop - because that is where AMD fans like to fight - but also in servers and low end and next year will attack in GPU - likely ready for CES 2020. Intel is preparing to do not a Tick or a Tock - but this time they are combining Tick and Tock - mean both Process and Architexture change in a single releases.
For me, my XPS 15 2in1 will last me to late 2019 or 2020, we are going to see signifcant change in performance with this new breed. To me Sunny Cove looks like Intel's most signficant Architexture change possible even surpassing the original i series from old Pentium 4 and Core 2 days
More information on Sunny Cove can be found in this article
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13699/intel-archite...
TheJian - Wednesday, January 9, 2019 - link
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13832/amd-radeon-vi...NEW INFO First and foremost, 7nm announced today on stage, but GPU (331mm) Radeon VII. So TSMC working, we’ll see about cpu, but they can clearly do a cpu too as this GPU is 331mm^2 and that would be a fairly LARGE cpu die from AMD. But this does mean 7nm DESKTOP cpu WELL before XMAS, stating Q2/Q3 (back to school). MATISSE (mid2019 stated). The GPU is here early I guess since they just re-used MI60 chips for quick release (yield good, or left over?)
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13829/amd-ryzen-3rd...
So, adding this info above as I’ve been reading on/off all day (CES crap). So again, AMD 7nm CPU READY Mid2019.
We are talking HVM, which I called BS until a HVM product is out the door, such as a desktop for instance as noted. Or heck, "insert any HVM larger die product" you want which would mean HVM is a go! Intel has claimed (apparently) that they have ANY HVM product capability, which again, I see NONE and a SMALL product in pretty low volume doesn't scream "success, we've done it for ALL chips, even the larger ones"...Uh, no, or start producing some!
I said what I WANTED in a desktop from Intel (10nm! which again is high volume) or stated I'd buy AMD and if you're waiting on Intel, might as well take AMD 12core etc right (12/16 core will require 7nm to be effective from tsmc surely)? I gave an argument based on perf/process of the alternative, which to me seems very reasonable (it’s the only other choice in town). We see how far Intel is getting with 14nm (8 core finally mainstream? Not really at $478!), and 10nm MAY enable Intel to do a decent 12 core, but we’ll see vs. 7nm AMD from TSMC with it seems, up to 16 core on mainstream boards (room on ryzen2 (3rd gen) for another 8core chiplet) and If AMD IPC claims are true, a decent upgrade from the current story playing out. Assumed leaks say 12/16 core just moved down from HEDT to mainstream boards with AMD at some point. It will be fun to see Intel 10nm response (cancel a chipset at release again? LOL, my 6 core+Board was dead the day I bought it), just like it was fun watching pathetic 9900k/9700k etc. They had to turn HT off just to cherry pick enough for 8core/16 thread model IMHO. IE, even though they turned off ½ the threads, cache, etc, 9700k uses the same watts? How bad are your yields if you have to drop ½ threads & slow it down to hit 95w still (anandtech discussed this issue of yields and LVM too)? Is it the same core too, so you disabled 4MB of cache maybe to get yields up? No reason to leave it out as 9700k, slower, ½ threads is no competition for the chip above it and again, 95w with all this downgrading? Smells like yield issues even here at 14nm, never mind you moved production to SERVER, because you can’t keep up with demand already (thus hiring TSMC for some 14nm help…Not good either).
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/26/intel-execs-on-10n...
Intel execs have now admitted they “bit off a little too much” on 10nm.
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/268407-intel...
“But regardless, we’re now talking about whether Intel can match its competitors on feature sizes, not whether it’ll continue to lead the industry.” Says it all doesn’t it? My point exactly. They are not “ahead” any more. Ziff Davis here.
Pentium 4 is a great chip now, and you were excited by it?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1611/6
Crash landing, failure says Anandtech 2005 (many others they wrote too, like everyone).
https://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/Yes-Netburst-...
Netburst arch, REALLY was that BAD…I could go on, as every review site said this at some point. You imply this is a tech that was some kind of amazing achievement. I disagree, as does the whole web. “ridiculously huge pipeline”. You’ve never heard of PRESSHOT? Cooking with Intel? ROFL.
Intel has been promising 10nm for over 2yrs (late 2016, as noted in above article from extremetech) and now seems 3yrs late if xmas 2019 for even a SMALL chip, not really HVM as Anandtech even noted. Now you think they'll get a HVM gpu out the door for CES in Jan 2020? You’re aware they’ll be 3yrs late with 10nm at xmas right (I said it before and here again)? They failed with i740, they failed with larrabee, drivers have NEVER been good on Intel (I know I sold i740 as a PC biz I had for a decade) discrete or integrated, etc. What in Intel's history says "this time it will work" and the design time is super-fast here? I think H2 at best for discrete from Intel gpu dept based on no cpu in 2019 for HVM lager dies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_grap...
List of companies that have attempted to take on NV/AMD (er, ATI?) and failed, which BTW have mostly been gobbled up by AMD/NV. Please can you provide a link to info that says Intel will get it right where EVERYONE has failed before for 20yrs no matter the size of their budget, including INTEL? What has change THIS time?
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-xe-gpu-spe...
Clearly states Intel discrete gpu will be 10nm (Intel said it), and 2020 while I don’t think they meant Jan. OK, so you think Jan 2020 CES for a LARGE chip that will compete with AMD/NV cards at, spitballing here, 300mm^2+? It will be competing with faster chips than current 12nm 445mm^2 dies @10.8B transistors (never mind ridiculous reticle limit 2080ti chips, titans etc). Both NV/AMD will have gpus at 7nm, so you have to perform even faster than these right? Intel can’t put out a 200mm^2 die at 10nm and think it will catch much larger dies on TSMC 7nm. It would appear NV will wait on 7nm until 2020 (no competition in high end this whole year, AMD going low die size THIS year), but that is to put out another reticle limit top end chip again like 2080ti and raising prices after a cut surely when AMD hits 7nm. I mean, 754mm^2 is really pushing limits on yields here, 18.6B transistors and that would even be BIG at 7nm if you just shrunk this (~400-500mm^2?).
https://insidehpc.com/2018/12/7nm-gpu-fastest-rade...
AMD 7nm MI60 gpu is 331m @13.2B, so major reduction from NV 18.6B, so again guessing Intel will be competing with NV ~450mm^2 or so (mid of my guess? Though NV probably does better than AMD here, so ~400? Whatever it’s big) if they go 18.6B or more based on AMD 331 7nm from the same process and I’ll be shocked if NV’s 3080ti (guessed name, whatever) will be less than 20B transistors and I’d guess much higher. I’d be shocked if AMD doesn’t get navi 10 out by July, and may hit early Q2 as MI60 is Q1 for purchase. They said MI60 was a pipe cleaner (smaller 331 die, but on a low volume HIGH margin product in PRO stuff), signaling a LARGER die size on at least some model for desktop later in the works right (NAVI10 is small, so not the chip discussed here)? You don’t have to pipeclean for a small desktop gpu chip, you do it for a LARGE model coming soon. AMD/Intel/NV routinely put out smaller laptops first, pipecleaning for future larger models on new processes. You are living in a fantasy world if Intel is putting out the first “supposedly” HVM 10nm small chips for xmas devices not back to school, which MIGHT make your point valid. It’s XMAS, so AFTER sept or you’d say back to school, and gpu has been said to be H2 2020. Intel isn’t dumb going after poor, there is no money in it, ask AMD (Navi10…LOL, puny). Intel will attempt to chase NV high end for margins, which means BIG, and that isn’t coming in Jan as a pipecleaner is not what is coming for xmas from Intel. It will likely be under 150mm^2, not 331 like AMD pipecleaner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Lake_(microar...
Cannon lake, shown running CES2017, but delayed to 2018, then CES 2018, shipping would ramp 2018, ooops, April 2018, shipping LOW VOL 10nm & cannon would be delayed AGAIN to LATE Q2 2019. It’s in a nuc now, but we’re talking a 70mm^2 dual core chip here and NUC’s don’t sell volume anyway. How many people do you know that own HTPC’s? These are less than that and expensive for a puny weak dual core (~$540). As noted they’ve been fighting yields and costs due to them sucking. They only produced ONE model AFAIK.
https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1371/a-look-at-inte...
Architecture is important but no more so than shrinks and process upgrades (Intel 14, 14+, 14++ etc) as these allow massive watt drops, transistors, and shrinking die sizes to make more money. IE, from 4th to 5th gen on Intel, you got 35% more transistors and a 37% smaller die size (131 down to 82mm^2, and .96B to 1.3B transistors). Not sure how you can just discount this side of the equation and act like it’s just a “stupid process”…LOL. OK. You trolling me? Processes are stupid? C’mon man. Discrete gpu 2020 in January? Are you an Intel shareholder (I have been, not now) with wishful thinking or what? If Intel won’t even put out a “tentative” release date, it’s not JAN 2020. Why would you say something as non-specific as 2020, if you meant Jan, or at worst Q1? Heck they could have said H1 2020. You say 2020 when you have no idea yet as of CES 2019 speeches. NO date, just 2020. I’m sure they’re praying for Jan, but not unless they’re chasing poor people like AMD, and that is NOT Intel’s style. Also note, Intel was supposed to be on 10+ by now and 10++ this year.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11722/intel-reveals...
https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1910/intel-looks-to...
“A big part of keeping up the improvements to the system architecture remains the process technology.” AGREE, and the 10nm “stupid process” has held up the entire company product line right? But who needs this process crap…LOL.
“Process technology details are almost always kept secret until released due to competitive reasons.” Well, if it is just “stupid process” junk, why the heck do you think Intel guards it so closely until RELEASE? GF process has literally killed a product or two. But no, not very important even though they can literally CRUSH your product launch. Just ask Intel. They are getting less out of process today than 10yrs ago, but it’s still worth a lot. We’re done here, as I’m realizing responding to your comment is kind of a joke at this point (perhaps on me for doing it…LOL), but for anyone buying these stocks, it’s relevant info anyway and I have to do the homework like it or not (or lose money) ;)
lashek37 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I’m more confused than than a homeless man on house arrest. your but must really hurt.croc - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
What does "thejian" mean in Russian? I see one of the Russian Trump 'supporters', I call someone...HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Even though, I disagree with "theJian" technical, I would leave any type of politics out of technical discussions.ASAPscotty - Wednesday, April 3, 2019 - link
Blame everyone else for your problems, write a ton of shit no one cares about or will read, and then blame everyone for that too. You definitely aren't mentally unstable.TheJian - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
https://www.techradar.com/news/intel-announces-its..."Intel also demonstrated how users will be able to play with its amped-up Gen II integrated graphics. Unfortunately, Intel didn't disclose any setting that they were playing the game at."
Anandtech calls no roadmaps open? NO settings open? Did they say anything of SUBSTANCE today? I've been reading Intel crap for an hour and still don't see any data from CES 2019. I see 2018 repeat.
Jorgp2 - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
Dude, we know the EU counts.So we know around where it will perform.
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
The article you mention states "the last of which is capable of powering a 4K display." This is related to Ice Lake. it sounds like a significant improvement on current integrated graphics - but 2020 will have new platform that competes with both NVidia and AMD on discrete graphics level.sorten - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
Ice Lake-U, SP7 + TB3, please!KateH - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
yes, please! i had a SP2 way back when and it would have been my perfect machine if it had a quadcore CPU, more RAM, and provision for better graphics. the newer models check the CPU and memory upgrade, all it's missing now is eGPU capability.darkswordsman17 - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
On the Foveros chip, I was thinking for gen 2 of HoloLens. It'd let them carryover the work that went into the first one with the Atom cores, give it some more performance maybe when plugged in, and the GPU would likely be a big benefit for such a device. I think rumors point to HoloLens moving to ARM though. On the forums someone suggested Courier (which I believe Microsoft has said they are going to release as a consumer product at some point). It'd be good for tablets. I think it'd be good for standalone AR/VR headsets too. I could see it being a chip for the normal Macbook, or some hybrid iOS/Mac OS device that might function like the Surface Book, with the tablet portion having an Apple SoC, and then the base having this running MacOS. Its a neat chip that could fit quite a few devices. Likely more premium stuff though, but sounds like Intel is thinking up twists on that type of chip, so maybe we'll get some reference designs.HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Yes it sounds like Foveros Chip would be good for HoloLens Gen 2 - but also it would good route for low end laptops like using Pentium chips - think about what most people use laptops for - spreadsheets and word processor - so higher performance core chip would be good for that in primary thread and atom chips for other multi-processing. I would expect OS vendors like Microsoft will possibly have changes to optimized this. I would also not doubt - AMD will likely have a similar component one day.Interesting comment about iOS/Mac OS - with EMiB like in my XPS 15 2in1 - they code have Core CPU in combine with Apple SoC one day for Hybrid - who knows this could already be in plans
ScouserPcgamer - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
“Also in the 9th Gen space, Intel said that the mobile 9th Gen Core processors will be available in Q2.”Right so looks like will be two Gaming laptop released this year, RTX mobile & 8th gen CPU (end jan) and then wouldn’t be surprised that Q3 has RTX mobile and 9th Gen CPU gaming laptops, think will just wait till towards end of year before getting a gaming laptop
SaturnusDK - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Intel announcing products a year in advance now promising desktop 10nm by H2. Well, we all know what happened to the W3175X promised to be out in 2018 at Computex last year, announced October 8th to be available in December, yet still nowhere to be found, not even on Intels own product pages.I think its a good bet we'll be well into 2020 before we see any 10nm desktop parts on the shelves anywhere.
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I think Intel is fully aware of last year or so supply issues and making changes in process so that Holiday season 2019 is a real possibly - now desktop 10nm is very likely a lower priority than mobile 10nm - this article sounds like a very positive indication that 10nm is reality for 2019 in large quantities. Combine with articles about Intel investments in FAB and Sunny Cove announcement - it seams like a sure bet in 2019.jjj - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Why do you assume that Lakefield is for PC, have they stated that? Could be a number of other things since in PC, a single big core and high cost is not that appealing and super low idle is not all that relevant.Unless for some foldable phone/tab.
jjj - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Actually a single big core is not a good choice for a phone either, if someone wants x86 there, they need 2 cores at least.My guess would be Tesla for infotainment but would rather see console grade gaming in cars not this crap.
DanNeely - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I doubt it'd be the Automotive segment. They're not highly volume or idle power constrained; and already have a crapload of arm chips for all sorts of embedded control systems.jjj - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
They are very power constrained, far more than laptop even with EVs because charging is slow, the infrastructure limited and batteries are costly..And cars are about 80 million units per year so as high vols as laptops but much higher ASPs as the product needs to be a lot more reliable. Plus, the PC has no future, sales will be 0 in less than 10 years.
FunBunny2 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
years ago, the CEO of Intel (don't recall which one) said, "I'd rather have my chip in every Ford than every PC"."Even basic vehicles have at least 30 of these microprocessor-controlled devices, known as electronic control units, and some luxury cars have as many as 100."
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/technology/05el... and that was 8 or 9 years ago.
Icehawk - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Uh huh, see ten years ago they said desktops were dead... and they aren’t. It will be a lot longer before they dissapearstephenbrooks - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Also the definition of "PC" keeps changing in these claims. Do they mean desktop, or laptop? What about a ChromeBook or MacBook - is that a PC? You can put linux on a ChromeBook now, so it's evolving towards being a general purpose PC rather than away. TVs and consoles are also gradually turning into PCs.FunBunny2 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
it's surely arguable that most users of 'desktop' computers can do wordprocessing, email, and spreadsheets on a 1995 cpu. it would appear that only high-stakes gamers and the occasional data scientist really need Intel/AMD latest silicon.HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I think you are thinking of ARM based CPU's - where multiple big cores maybe be required - for decades we have single core x86 base CPU and having addition smaller core for idle tasks would be benefit. I would believe that a single large core combine with 4 atom cores would be just as good a 2 large cores. Remember these are Sunny Core cores which are significantly faster than current cores.FunBunny2 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
" I would believe that a single large core combine with 4 atom cores would be just as good a 2 large cores. "it remains true that 99.44% of applications are single-threaded, and embarrassingly parallel problems are as rare as hen's teeth. remember lo those few years ago when it was asserted that clock speed was as fast as possible and needed? all we'd need was more threads/cores. hasn't worked out that way. having lots o cores to run lots o apps at the 'same time' is a totally different problem, and GPU seems to have solved much of that.
HStewart - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
I believe we are in alignment - but it will be interesting to see how Foveres lines up - I know we say my Samsung Galaxy S3 - 4 large core and 4 small cores are part of designed - but an ARM core is much less powerful core than a Core based x86 core.As developer for 30 years, most of application depend on primary thread especially with user interface - and I can see how GPU could be more beneficial in have more units. But threads usually except for heavy compute situation are primary in idle state in most applications. For example check network connection for update status - or monitor a file - or post a message or something - typically a big while loop while thread is active - do something and go to sleep and repeat.
Even in heavy compute system, it would be better designed to break the task into chunks and let the thread - more yield of task, A lot of depends on OS - is very likely in same application - that it is all running on same core - it very possible that it requires additional logic to run it on additional core. I could see games using threads for AI and update character / bot movement on the playing field. How effective directly depends on how the OS is written and how the game is written. In addition it depends on how the CPU is designed - it possibly using more cores on system may actually slow things down for multiple reasons - system may run them at lower speed - plus what it takes to maintain the threads. But if believe it better to have less higher speed cores than more less powerful cores. But I also believe it much better if you need multiple cores - that it better to spread them across multiple CPU's. For example a quad cpu 8 core system would beat a single cpu 32 core system or a dual 16 core system. Because the cores can be run at higher speed.
The big question are we solving the problem of technology by throwing more cores into the picture, or should the architexture be change to make existing cores more efficient - this does not just mean clock speed - this is why the Sunny Cove changes in Ice Lake - look so exciting - it stead of patching the problem with more cores and higher frequency - revolutionize the design of system to handle the problem better.
Well like anything else on internet - this is my opinion - but part of those 30 years include 7 years of OS development and schooling include some Microprocessor design even though that was in 80's but I try to keep up with latest and that is why I come to forums like this.
MobiusPizza - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
"Intel also mentioned software support, such as the new VNNI instructions, openVINO toolkit support, Cryptographic ISA instructions, and support for Overworld."What is Overworld? The slide says OverWolf but even so what is that?
PeachNCream - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
In the original Legend of Zelda, the Overworld was the exterior areas above any dungeon in which a piece of the Triforce was stored. I presume this means that Intel is ensuring software support for such top-level areas, but refuses to actually do anything to reassemble the Triforce.KPOM - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Any word on when the Ice Lake-Y chips will be available, and whether they will support LP-DDR4X and Thunderbolt 3?sbrown23 - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
"A lot of discussion has been held that this was an Apple request, and given Apple’s device portfolio, its volume of sales, and its desire to drive down power with optimized unique designs, the argument for Apple holds some water. But it doesn't sit right with me. This is more a low-powered chip, perhaps even lower power than the A12X in the iPads, so I don’t think Apple would want that chip in one of its MacBooks."I'm going with Microsoft. Seems perfect for a next-gen Surface Go.Current one is clocked too low, weak GPU, and dual-core with no HT. The Foveros 10nm SoC would give them an improvement so many ways: lower idle power draw, probably a better GPU, increased core count with the Tremont cores, and likely a much higher clock on the Sunny Cove core for single core burst duties than they have on the current 1.6GHz Pentium Gold.
Given that Qualcomm is a long way from matching Apple's A12 performance, Lakefield in Surface Go seems like a perfect fit.
ilkhan - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
*yawn*.Wake me up when Intel actually releases a meaningful upgrade instead of yet another 2-3% of worthless.
iwod - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
We will have to wait for Lakefield Pricing. If it is sub $50, may be we could see a $899 MacBook.peevee - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
"This is surprising, given that Intel is usually conservative with supported memory speed declarations – they still make a DDR4-2933 processor in their lineup – so jumping to 3200 would indeed be an unexpected shift for the company."Frequency increase of 9% is not jump, it is a tiny half-step. But LPDDR4x instead of hopelessly outdated and power-hungry DDR4 is a very different matter, both in mobile and (would be) server space.
Hixbot - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Are there no moderators here? I come to the comments for thoughtful tech discussion on article, usually the author joins in. Instead, I find walls of text ranting and screaming.DeepLearner - Wednesday, January 9, 2019 - link
Seriously, the first half of this comment section is worthless.zodiacfml - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
Looks like AMD will own the desktop CPU market for several months. Good for AMD but not pricing. They will charge more than they used toOzymankos - Thursday, January 17, 2019 - link
AMD already has 64 cores and 128 thread processors on 10 nm(whom they call 7 nm:)))and Intel now ..gets big money with their non-linear chips:12 cores,18 cores,etc