I still think a tegra 4 surface RT is a significantly worse Decision than a bay trail Surface, even if slightly more expensive, considering the big loss in versatility.
Yeah, I'm rather disappointed there isn't a Bay Trail or Kabini/Temash Surface. Great piece of hardware, but I don't want the limitations of WinRT and I don't need the price and power-draw of the Haswell version either.
I think RT is the future for Windows Phone. If MS can get the WP store apps ported over, then RT would not feel so deficient. I use my Surface almost exclusively as my primary computer. It is great as a tablet, and all the things that needed to be fixed, are, for Surface 2. Desktop mode with non-touch applications on what is primarily a tablet would be frustration city. MS Store just needs the apps and then I feel there is absolutely a place for Surface 2, running what I feel is the superior touch UI of today. Once you adjust to the edge swipe-in features, it's very intuitive. It just didn't translate well on desktops.
They needed Haswell to appeal to business users who has an upgrade path choice due to complete X86 compatibility (not that it is useful) but the correct mindset that is real hard to change for business types. This way at least Haswell Surface Pro has some market appeal unlike the Surface 2 using WinRT. Since RT is still crippled, it is makng the same mistakes, it did before with slightly better hardware and screen but nothing else to add. This is certainly a way to kill Surface RT in the long run. There will be millions unsold like the original Surface models. If MS were to develop a compatibility software box inside WinRT to run WP8 apps, it will help a great deal.
Because everybody and his brother will soon be making Bay Trail Win 8.1 knock-offs and they didn't want to get in a low margin war with them. The Haswell is considerably faster and they come with decent SSDs and more RAM. Uses more power, but is also much higher performance and targets a different audience for use as a laptop replacement.
Yup, was hoping for a move to a 3 product line-up with RT/low-end x86/high-end x86. At the end of the day they probably don't want to offer a Bay Trail SKU priced closely with the ARM version because they are still trying to drive adoption of RT. Guess I'll be getting one from Asus or another OEM. Too bad, because the build quality is nice.
This might as well be the end of Win RT. Buggy OS, lousy apps in the store, ecosystem crippled by Microsoft policy, no serious hardware vendors except Microsoft -- and this event did nothing to change that.
They wanted to keep this Surface on the ARM platform in order to keep that version alive. They MUST have developers create Apps for the RT version of Windows in order to stay relevant in the next 5 years and this surface will continue that push to make people adopt RT.
Yes, a Bay Trail version would have been awesome, but I'm sure you'll see 3 parties develop some nice Bay Trail Tablets to satisfy your needs.
One of the last slides shows it starting at $899, but it also shows 4 models: 64Gb/4GB ram, 128/4, 256/8, and 512/8. I'd really like to know how much that 256GB with 8GB of ram is going to be.
I hope they don't make this as pricey as the original Surface Pro. Non-pro Surface is already off the table for me as they've decided to go with ARM vs Bay Trail.
I agree, not comparing to the ARM tablets (I own 2 of those). But the price point is important. If I can get a bay trail Asus with cover T100 for $350 and the Surface Pro with cover is $1000 it will be very difficult to justify the jump. Yeah I know you can't compare the display, haswell with bay trail, etc. but I don't think 2.5x $ gets me 2.5x value in this case. I could justify 2x though :)
Define better, most people would rather work on a larger screen with a real hinge and a more comfortable keyboard... More versatile sure, perhaps even a better value than most similarly priced laptops, better's a stretch and highly subjective.
I know. I just wish it wasn't a 2 year only deal or that they made sure that if you do a 2 year hardware refresh cycle you'll always get 200gb of skydrive or similiar. It would encourage me to upgrade regulary just to maintain skydrive perk.
Skydrive is one of the less expensive cloud storage options, but 200gb is still a $100/year perk that'd I'd actually use. I'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
I wish they had announced a bay trail version and a tegra 4 version. Or would open up RT for third party desktop apps... Honestly if I could run visual studio and few admin tools on it I would probably be ok with the tegra 4 version.
The pro 2 sounds good, and there's lots of bay trail alternatives coming out, so I'm sure I'll get something this time around, which is better than I was able to say a year ago.
I too have been hoping for a version of Windows on ARM with either an unlocked or unlock-able desktop. RT 8.1 for me has turned out to be a big disappointment so far in that regard, especially as Microsoft went out of their way to make sure the current RT 8.0 "jailbreak" will no longer function. Surface RT is a really nice device, but the OS suffers from some very unfortunate and deliberate choices.
Perhaps, but the hardware the OEMs are going to be pushing out at that price point with Bay Trail and full Win8 isn't going to be anywhere near as compelling as the Surface 2's hardware.
Right... and like I said, hardware (I'm not talking about simply the silicon when I say "hardware") is not going to be on the Surface's level, from what I've seen.
Are people buying sub-$500 devices gonna pay a 50%+ premium for a nicer build? Surface 2 is already $100 more expensive BEFORE adding a keyboard cover, it's $200+ more expensive once you factor that in. Huge difference...
So they addressed the TERRIBLE screen of the first RT with a not as terrible screen. 1080P for a screen of that size is ok, but WAY behind the competition.
Will be interested in benchmarks, but I don't see Tegra 4 being all that compelling.
Lol? Surface RT had a pretty damn good screen. The pixel density at 1366x768 on a 10.1" device is more than fine. There's a lot more to a good screen than simply pushing pixels.
Now they've moved to full HD and they're "WAY behind"? Gimme a break. The only reason Apple skipped straight to 2048x1536 was so they could use pixel doubling, not because it's actually meaningful to push that many pixels on such a small screen.
1080p on a 10.1" screen is about 218 PPI. That's about the same PPI as a 20" 4K monitor would have.
The blacks and contrast were decent on the 768P display. However trying to read small text was painful. Text was pixelated enough to not be pleasant to read.
Every other tablet out there (Even cheaper $200 models) have a higher PPI. If MS is going to charge $450 for the base model, it should at least attempt to match the specs of the cheaper devices.
What's even more painful is that RT will mostly refuse to work on any vertical resolution less then 768p which means it's a royal PITA to connect it to 720p devices like many projectors. Unfortunately the signal quality and strength out of the micro-HDMI socket is so lousy that 1080p@50Hz or up are not even an option. So one is screwed in the two most common resolutions on those devices with no proper intermediate available that can be scaled by decent output devices.
A) It IS actually useful and meaningful to render at a higher res and then scale down like Apple does, though it comes with a performance and compatibility penalty at times.
B) It's not preferable on Windows because there's so many legacy apps that DPI scaling can be a nightmare, even 1080p at under 13" can cause all sorta issues.
@Impulses I was actually referencing the RT/Surface 2 model. Which has no legacy apps as it is ARM based. But what you say is very true of standard Windows 8/8.1.
You can add to your "1" the added penalty that Apple cannot offer 1080p displays for their MBA and their MBP 13/15" which ship with 1280x800/1440x900(TN panels). If Windows has legacy issues with scaling, OSX is so bad that it simply doesn't address the issue at all.
MBA displays pale in comparison to current ultrabooks, totally, but it has more to do with Apple wanting to milk a larger profit out of the Airs than anything else... I don't give Apple credit for much, and I think the way iOS handles scaling is asinine, but I think for a desktop OS the OS X approach actually made lot of sense despite the early drawbacks. More horsepower eventually solves most issues and you depends a bit less on developers to comply.
Apple's approach to scaling is literally pixel doubling or bust. That's why there isn't any room for "in between" resolutions like FullHD. Using a FullHD panel on the MBA would mean making use of a non-integer scaling factor, the same one Windows applies(1.25 or 1.50 or maybe even 1.35). Apple knows the visual experience won't be as "sharp" as it would want it to be. That was my point and not ios scaling.
I see no mention of weight reduction? As someone who has actually played with a surface pro I can say it was far to big and heavy. It's basically a little laptop as you can hold it like a tablet for long. Surface 2 pro needs to be more iPad size/weight and less like a brick for it to have much chance, or it'll just be another small expensive laptop.
It's a real computer, and there's no way you're cramming real computer specs into an iPad frame. If you're looking for something that actually competes with an iPad, you should be comparing the Surface (RT) 2, not the Pro.
This. People need to realize the Surface Pro is a bit of niche product. Don't think of it like (or compare it to) an iPad. Think of it like a Macbook Air with a much better screen that you can use in tablet mode. When viewed through that lens it is a lot more compelling, especially if we are talking about 10+ hours of battery life now with Haswell. The 13" Air is a really nice ultraportable, but this would work even better for me for travel. I just think it needs a higher res display in conjunction with pixel doubling in desktop mode. Trying to use desktop apps like Outlook @1080p on a 10" screen doesn't sound fun.
@Dribble: " Surface 2 pro needs to be more iPad size/weight". This is just IMPOSSIBLE with the Haswell chip in there. Unless, it get throttled down to 800Mhz or 600 Mhz which means even the Snapdragon 800 and Tegra4 chip will beat it in both performance and power consumption at this low frequency. One ends up with a laggy Win8 experience which nobody wants at any price. This is where the BayTrail Atom tries to address where is could possibly near the "acceptable performance" with the right frequency (ie 1.6Ghz) with the target power consumption figures that are competitive to the market. Sure, it is not fair to compare Win8 tablet to an Android tablet or IOS tablet. But if their use was in similar capacity, then the comparison is valid and user choices will change to the preferred devices.
They're announcing some new hardware. What did you expect? Are they supposed to have Lady Gaga do a performance or something? I'm rather glad they're keeping the fluff out.
How about some decent improvements to the software? You know like Win RT improvements or app store improvements or some freebies for the people having a Surface RT already hanging on to the f'ing crappy ecosystem?
What is the size and weight of the Pro compared to the original?
I think both Surfaces are a nice improvement. They have addressed almost all issues i had, i just want to Pro to be atleast thinner and/or lighter as well. I know it will never be as thin as the RT version though.
I am disappointed to hear no mention of LTE and GPS on Pro. Intel did the Haswell part. It works out to be a refresh +. They get the plus from revamping the keyboard line up. I am not understanding even offering the 64 GB model on Pro. Bad move. Good move offering up to 512 GB. The dock is interesting but not compelling. Very good to include and should have been something offered with first devices. Do the new dock and keyboards work with first gen devices?
So what I am reading is that MS has a non-compete agreement with Apple.
What a horrendous article format this is! As if uploading videos all the time instead of textual stories isn't lazy enough, now we're just getting a few photos and verbiage that wouldn't be prolix even by Twitter standards.
Have you been living under a rock the last several years? Not sure how a tech enthusiast doesn't understand the concept of the live blogging format but here you go...
Anandtech will usually live blog an event then post separate Pipeline articles referencing the most relevant news. You can of course choose another site that gives you a better value for your money... ;)
Thanks for the coverage, looking forward to the hands on. I knew it was too much to wish for, but I was really hoping a for a Bay Trail SKU around $600 with 64GB+, the type cover, and a 2560x1440 display (to be able to use the desktop well in 1280x720, not just for the sake of having a high DPI). I'm sure someone else will build it, but I would have loved to get it with the Surface's build quality.
Well I'm talking 2D only, I don't expect to play any games on these. I was worried about the same based on the choppy performance a higher performing HD 4000 GPU provided in the 13" rMBP, but I'm not sure how much of that was software. Anand wasn't complaining about 2D performance (scrolling web pages etc.) during his time with the Intel Bay Trail reference tablet so I'm at least a little hopeful.
So the actual technical details are left to be guessed. Which cpu model, what screen resolution, how much weight, what the power cover actually has aside from an added battery (I guess nothing), what about the stylus(any improvement? the original was good enough though) etc. Waiting for a review or at least a preview real soon.
Personally I would like it to have a power cover that is big (not afraid of an extra pound), can hold the tablet without the kickstand, with additional ports, extra hard drive or at least the space to fit one. But I think that would make it the perfect product in the world which is incredibly difficult to make for a company the size of the Pacific ocean.
Pro 2 is quite good, although I don't understand why they bother to make 64GB version at all. Also I want it bit larger than 10.6" (especially with super wide screen ratio)
I'd like to see how the sony will set the pricing of their 11" Vaio Tab 11 tablet.
Surface Pro 2. 256GB SSD. 8 GB RAM. Power Cover. Docking Station.
This is my next purchase. Replaces every computing device in my house, sans my phone. Amazing how far technology has come in the last few years. If Apple released this product we'd all be marveling at it for weeks on end, but the fact is MSFT has an extremely negative bias amongst press and tech enthusiasts in general. They are the company everyone loves to hate (rightfully so in some cases) but this product is simply too good for people to ignore any longer.
IMHO this is a MBA slayer. There is no reason why I'd ever want to get that laptop with its god awful screen over this. The MBA screen is truly awful and the only reason it's not reamed for it is because it's from Apple.
I agree about the MBA displays and the poor value proposition they represent...And I'd totally be exited about the docking station if I was ready to part with my desktop (never!), but I don't think most people really care... Small tablets are selling super well, the market sorta settled unto 13-15" laptops being ideal, any device that sits in between and doesn't replace either as effectively won't interest anyone that isn't super mobile. Maybe future Intel processes make it so that the Surface Pro is as light and thin as a regular ARM tablet and the market swings back, right now the consumer market couldn't care less about productivity tablets...
I think 99% of the computational need for ULV devices (MBA, surface pro, etc) can be fulfilled with bay trail device, given good enough screen and input methods (wacom). They are basically only good for web browsing and light office tasks, yet more expensive and vastly underpowered than full-voltage quad core offerings with discrete GPUs,
So that's my main disappointment - if MS had released a bay trail version of surface pro with the same dimension and price of surface 2, it would be a real game changer. And many OEMs already have proved that they can release BT devices at the same price range of Tegra 4 devices.
It is quite a nice device, bit late to the market though and feels like what the first Surface should have been. As a Visual Studio and Xcode dev, there's nothing in it which would make me stop using my trusty MacBook pro from 2011 (which is still better specced than the Surface 2, but obviously bigger) running Windows in a VM and iPad combo though. When they eventually need upgrading I might look at MS's offerings, as the Surface is actually quite well built and designed by PC standards. However by that time, Windows 8/8.1 might be a distant memory judging by the current sentiment... Bundling Office is a good idea but must really hurt their bottom line...
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Crono - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Is that big display a giant Surface? I'd take one of those to use, a la the original Surface coffee tables. :DDrumsticks - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I still think a tegra 4 surface RT is a significantly worse Decision than a bay trail Surface, even if slightly more expensive, considering the big loss in versatility.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Yeah, I'm rather disappointed there isn't a Bay Trail or Kabini/Temash Surface. Great piece of hardware, but I don't want the limitations of WinRT and I don't need the price and power-draw of the Haswell version either.Amoro - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Agreed. $450 is just too much for a tablet that's so limited. Being on WinRT is also useless. Why divide your user base?Why was haswell even considered? It's unnecessary for performance, expensive, and draws too much power.
MonkeyPaw - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I think RT is the future for Windows Phone. If MS can get the WP store apps ported over, then RT would not feel so deficient. I use my Surface almost exclusively as my primary computer. It is great as a tablet, and all the things that needed to be fixed, are, for Surface 2. Desktop mode with non-touch applications on what is primarily a tablet would be frustration city. MS Store just needs the apps and then I feel there is absolutely a place for Surface 2, running what I feel is the superior touch UI of today. Once you adjust to the edge swipe-in features, it's very intuitive. It just didn't translate well on desktops.fteoath64 - Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - link
They needed Haswell to appeal to business users who has an upgrade path choice due to complete X86 compatibility (not that it is useful) but the correct mindset that is real hard to change for business types. This way at least Haswell Surface Pro has some market appeal unlike the Surface 2 using WinRT. Since RT is still crippled, it is makng the same mistakes, it did before with slightly better hardware and screen but nothing else to add. This is certainly a way to kill Surface RT in the long run. There will be millions unsold like the original Surface models. If MS were to develop a compatibility software box inside WinRT to run WP8 apps, it will help a great deal.Jaybus - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
Because everybody and his brother will soon be making Bay Trail Win 8.1 knock-offs and they didn't want to get in a low margin war with them. The Haswell is considerably faster and they come with decent SSDs and more RAM. Uses more power, but is also much higher performance and targets a different audience for use as a laptop replacement.Bob Todd - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Yup, was hoping for a move to a 3 product line-up with RT/low-end x86/high-end x86. At the end of the day they probably don't want to offer a Bay Trail SKU priced closely with the ARM version because they are still trying to drive adoption of RT. Guess I'll be getting one from Asus or another OEM. Too bad, because the build quality is nice.Daniel Egger - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
This might as well be the end of Win RT. Buggy OS, lousy apps in the store, ecosystem crippled by Microsoft policy, no serious hardware vendors except Microsoft -- and this event did nothing to change that.Hubb1e - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
They wanted to keep this Surface on the ARM platform in order to keep that version alive. They MUST have developers create Apps for the RT version of Windows in order to stay relevant in the next 5 years and this surface will continue that push to make people adopt RT.Yes, a Bay Trail version would have been awesome, but I'm sure you'll see 3 parties develop some nice Bay Trail Tablets to satisfy your needs.
val1s - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Think they'll keep the magnesium frame? seems like the easiest way to save on costs.skiboysteve - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
why is less key travel a good thing? Love the backlit thoughsubflava - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Less key travel = thinner? Although I agree it's not as good for actually typing, but probably not a huge issue.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Yep, it's just so that it's thinner.subflava - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What's the resolution of the Surface Pro 2? Don't see any mention...kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
1080p.SpartanJet - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I'm really impressed with the Surface pro 2. Looks like I found my new tablet.Hrel - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I didn't see a price in there, or do you just not care?subflava - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Probably same pricing as before. $800-$900 range.SpartanJet - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Its a real computer, not a toy like other tablets. I don't expect it to be 500 but I'd guess it will be at or under 1k.Automaticman - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
One of the last slides shows it starting at $899, but it also shows 4 models: 64Gb/4GB ram, 128/4, 256/8, and 512/8. I'd really like to know how much that 256GB with 8GB of ram is going to be.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
$1299 according to the pipeline article.BSMonitor - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Brian, any mention of LTE versions?? .. Is there a Haswell or Broadwell/LTE SoC in the works?? akin to the Atom/LTE SoC.DrawTheLine - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I was reading over on Reddit through the Surface AMA that an LTE version would be available sometime early next year.McGilligan - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I hope they don't make this as pricey as the original Surface Pro. Non-pro Surface is already off the table for me as they've decided to go with ARM vs Bay Trail.skiboysteve - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
surface pro was better than most laptops at the same price. cant compare it against arm tablets.McGilligan - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I agree, not comparing to the ARM tablets (I own 2 of those). But the price point is important. If I can get a bay trail Asus with cover T100 for $350 and the Surface Pro with cover is $1000 it will be very difficult to justify the jump. Yeah I know you can't compare the display, haswell with bay trail, etc. but I don't think 2.5x $ gets me 2.5x value in this case. I could justify 2x though :)Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Define better, most people would rather work on a larger screen with a real hinge and a more comfortable keyboard... More versatile sure, perhaps even a better value than most similarly priced laptops, better's a stretch and highly subjective.skiboysteve - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
holy crap 200 gigs of skydrive!!!!!!!!andrewaggb - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I know. I just wish it wasn't a 2 year only deal or that they made sure that if you do a 2 year hardware refresh cycle you'll always get 200gb of skydrive or similiar. It would encourage me to upgrade regulary just to maintain skydrive perk.skiboysteve - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
good point. if I got this I would probably only use 100 gigs then to make sure I could at least purchase that without needing to purchase new hardwareandrewaggb - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Skydrive is one of the less expensive cloud storage options, but 200gb is still a $100/year perk that'd I'd actually use. I'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.Drumsticks - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
449 is definitely the right price, or much better, for this. They learned from that, at least.andrewaggb - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I wish they had announced a bay trail version and a tegra 4 version. Or would open up RT for third party desktop apps... Honestly if I could run visual studio and few admin tools on it I would probably be ok with the tegra 4 version.The pro 2 sounds good, and there's lots of bay trail alternatives coming out, so I'm sure I'll get something this time around, which is better than I was able to say a year ago.
domboy - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
I too have been hoping for a version of Windows on ARM with either an unlocked or unlock-able desktop. RT 8.1 for me has turned out to be a big disappointment so far in that regard, especially as Microsoft went out of their way to make sure the current RT 8.0 "jailbreak" will no longer function. Surface RT is a really nice device, but the OS suffers from some very unfortunate and deliberate choices.liahos1 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
how does msft expect to sell RT at 449? Are they insane? I could get a faster baytrail with full windows for that price or less! these guys are crazy!A5 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
From whom? I don't think anything like that has been announced yet.liahos1 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
a few vendors already announced baytrail tablets and 2-1s less than 399andrewaggb - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
yeah, look at the asus t100.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Perhaps, but the hardware the OEMs are going to be pushing out at that price point with Bay Trail and full Win8 isn't going to be anywhere near as compelling as the Surface 2's hardware.Drumsticks - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Asus T100 ships with a bay trail SoC that will be equal or maybe slightly less powerful for $100 less. Oh and it has a keyboard already.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Right... and like I said, hardware (I'm not talking about simply the silicon when I say "hardware") is not going to be on the Surface's level, from what I've seen.Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Are people buying sub-$500 devices gonna pay a 50%+ premium for a nicer build? Surface 2 is already $100 more expensive BEFORE adding a keyboard cover, it's $200+ more expensive once you factor that in. Huge difference...eanazag - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Not with core Office.Bob Todd - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Supposedly the T100 includes a full copy of Office 2013 Home & Student. No Outlook, but the target market for that device doesn't need it anyway.Drazick - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
If the Surface Pro 2 screen is well calibrated and support of Adobe for Touch (With the Pen) it could become the best companion for Photographers.Looks amazing!!!
Stuka87 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
So they addressed the TERRIBLE screen of the first RT with a not as terrible screen. 1080P for a screen of that size is ok, but WAY behind the competition.Will be interested in benchmarks, but I don't see Tegra 4 being all that compelling.
kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Lol? Surface RT had a pretty damn good screen. The pixel density at 1366x768 on a 10.1" device is more than fine. There's a lot more to a good screen than simply pushing pixels.Now they've moved to full HD and they're "WAY behind"? Gimme a break. The only reason Apple skipped straight to 2048x1536 was so they could use pixel doubling, not because it's actually meaningful to push that many pixels on such a small screen.
1080p on a 10.1" screen is about 218 PPI. That's about the same PPI as a 20" 4K monitor would have.
Stuka87 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
The blacks and contrast were decent on the 768P display. However trying to read small text was painful. Text was pixelated enough to not be pleasant to read.Every other tablet out there (Even cheaper $200 models) have a higher PPI. If MS is going to charge $450 for the base model, it should at least attempt to match the specs of the cheaper devices.
Daniel Egger - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What's even more painful is that RT will mostly refuse to work on any vertical resolution less then 768p which means it's a royal PITA to connect it to 720p devices like many projectors. Unfortunately the signal quality and strength out of the micro-HDMI socket is so lousy that 1080p@50Hz or up are not even an option. So one is screwed in the two most common resolutions on those devices with no proper intermediate available that can be scaled by decent output devices.Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
A) It IS actually useful and meaningful to render at a higher res and then scale down like Apple does, though it comes with a performance and compatibility penalty at times.B) It's not preferable on Windows because there's so many legacy apps that DPI scaling can be a nightmare, even 1080p at under 13" can cause all sorta issues.
Stuka87 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
@Impulses I was actually referencing the RT/Surface 2 model. Which has no legacy apps as it is ARM based. But what you say is very true of standard Windows 8/8.1.ananduser - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
You can add to your "1" the added penalty that Apple cannot offer 1080p displays for their MBA and their MBP 13/15" which ship with 1280x800/1440x900(TN panels). If Windows has legacy issues with scaling, OSX is so bad that it simply doesn't address the issue at all.Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
MBA displays pale in comparison to current ultrabooks, totally, but it has more to do with Apple wanting to milk a larger profit out of the Airs than anything else... I don't give Apple credit for much, and I think the way iOS handles scaling is asinine, but I think for a desktop OS the OS X approach actually made lot of sense despite the early drawbacks. More horsepower eventually solves most issues and you depends a bit less on developers to comply.ananduser - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
Apple's approach to scaling is literally pixel doubling or bust. That's why there isn't any room for "in between" resolutions like FullHD. Using a FullHD panel on the MBA would mean making use of a non-integer scaling factor, the same one Windows applies(1.25 or 1.50 or maybe even 1.35). Apple knows the visual experience won't be as "sharp" as it would want it to be. That was my point and not ios scaling.Dribble - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I see no mention of weight reduction? As someone who has actually played with a surface pro I can say it was far to big and heavy. It's basically a little laptop as you can hold it like a tablet for long. Surface 2 pro needs to be more iPad size/weight and less like a brick for it to have much chance, or it'll just be another small expensive laptop.kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
It's a real computer, and there's no way you're cramming real computer specs into an iPad frame. If you're looking for something that actually competes with an iPad, you should be comparing the Surface (RT) 2, not the Pro.Bob Todd - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
This. People need to realize the Surface Pro is a bit of niche product. Don't think of it like (or compare it to) an iPad. Think of it like a Macbook Air with a much better screen that you can use in tablet mode. When viewed through that lens it is a lot more compelling, especially if we are talking about 10+ hours of battery life now with Haswell. The 13" Air is a really nice ultraportable, but this would work even better for me for travel. I just think it needs a higher res display in conjunction with pixel doubling in desktop mode. Trying to use desktop apps like Outlook @1080p on a 10" screen doesn't sound fun.fteoath64 - Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - link
@Dribble: " Surface 2 pro needs to be more iPad size/weight". This is just IMPOSSIBLE with the Haswell chip in there. Unless, it get throttled down to 800Mhz or 600 Mhz which means even the Snapdragon 800 and Tegra4 chip will beat it in both performance and power consumption at this low frequency. One ends up with a laggy Win8 experience which nobody wants at any price. This is where the BayTrail Atom tries to address where is could possibly near the "acceptable performance" with the right frequency (ie 1.6Ghz) with the target power consumption figures that are competitive to the market.Sure, it is not fair to compare Win8 tablet to an Android tablet or IOS tablet. But if their use was in similar capacity, then the comparison is valid and user choices will change to the preferred devices.
ruzveh - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What a boring eventkyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
They're announcing some new hardware. What did you expect? Are they supposed to have Lady Gaga do a performance or something? I'm rather glad they're keeping the fluff out.Daniel Egger - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
How about some decent improvements to the software? You know like Win RT improvements or app store improvements or some freebies for the people having a Surface RT already hanging on to the f'ing crappy ecosystem?kyuu - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Um, there are improvements to WinRT with 8.1. But this event was about the hardware, not the software.fteoath64 - Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - link
Hey, it is MicroSoft. The only thing they ship which was not boring was the original Xbox!. All others has been boring and underwhelming.B3an - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What is the size and weight of the Pro compared to the original?I think both Surfaces are a nice improvement. They have addressed almost all issues i had, i just want to Pro to be atleast thinner and/or lighter as well. I know it will never be as thin as the RT version though.
eanazag - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I am disappointed to hear no mention of LTE and GPS on Pro. Intel did the Haswell part. It works out to be a refresh +. They get the plus from revamping the keyboard line up. I am not understanding even offering the 64 GB model on Pro. Bad move. Good move offering up to 512 GB. The dock is interesting but not compelling. Very good to include and should have been something offered with first devices. Do the new dock and keyboards work with first gen devices?So what I am reading is that MS has a non-compete agreement with Apple.
TerdFerguson - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What a horrendous article format this is! As if uploading videos all the time instead of textual stories isn't lazy enough, now we're just getting a few photos and verbiage that wouldn't be prolix even by Twitter standards.identity - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Go troll somewhere else.People are too stupid to even comprehend what article/blog style they're reading.
Bob Todd - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Have you been living under a rock the last several years? Not sure how a tech enthusiast doesn't understand the concept of the live blogging format but here you go...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liveblogging
Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Anandtech will usually live blog an event then post separate Pipeline articles referencing the most relevant news. You can of course choose another site that gives you a better value for your money... ;)Stuka87 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
What part of "Live Blog" do you not understand?Bob Todd - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Thanks for the coverage, looking forward to the hands on. I knew it was too much to wish for, but I was really hoping a for a Bay Trail SKU around $600 with 64GB+, the type cover, and a 2560x1440 display (to be able to use the desktop well in 1280x720, not just for the sake of having a high DPI). I'm sure someone else will build it, but I would have loved to get it with the Surface's build quality.rituraj - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Don't keep your hopes up. That century old hd graphics used in bay trail will give you a horrible experience in that resolution.nerd1 - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
In fact the intel reference tablet DOES use 1440p screen and runs Team Fortress 2 quite well.Bob Todd - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
Well I'm talking 2D only, I don't expect to play any games on these. I was worried about the same based on the choppy performance a higher performing HD 4000 GPU provided in the 13" rMBP, but I'm not sure how much of that was software. Anand wasn't complaining about 2D performance (scrolling web pages etc.) during his time with the Intel Bay Trail reference tablet so I'm at least a little hopeful.rituraj - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
So the actual technical details are left to be guessed.Which cpu model, what screen resolution, how much weight, what the power cover actually has aside from an added battery (I guess nothing), what about the stylus(any improvement? the original was good enough though) etc. Waiting for a review or at least a preview real soon.
Personally I would like it to have a power cover that is big (not afraid of an extra pound), can hold the tablet without the kickstand, with additional ports, extra hard drive or at least the space to fit one. But I think that would make it the perfect product in the world which is incredibly difficult to make for a company the size of the Pacific ocean.
BMNify - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
surface Pro 2 with the increased battery life is the one i will get, now just have to choose between Type cover and the new power cover.nerd1 - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Pro 2 is quite good, although I don't understand why they bother to make 64GB version at all. Also I want it bit larger than 10.6" (especially with super wide screen ratio)I'd like to see how the sony will set the pricing of their 11" Vaio Tab 11 tablet.
OneOfTheseDays - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
Surface Pro 2. 256GB SSD. 8 GB RAM. Power Cover. Docking Station.This is my next purchase. Replaces every computing device in my house, sans my phone. Amazing how far technology has come in the last few years. If Apple released this product we'd all be marveling at it for weeks on end, but the fact is MSFT has an extremely negative bias amongst press and tech enthusiasts in general. They are the company everyone loves to hate (rightfully so in some cases) but this product is simply too good for people to ignore any longer.
IMHO this is a MBA slayer. There is no reason why I'd ever want to get that laptop with its god awful screen over this. The MBA screen is truly awful and the only reason it's not reamed for it is because it's from Apple.
Impulses - Monday, September 23, 2013 - link
I agree about the MBA displays and the poor value proposition they represent...And I'd totally be exited about the docking station if I was ready to part with my desktop (never!), but I don't think most people really care... Small tablets are selling super well, the market sorta settled unto 13-15" laptops being ideal, any device that sits in between and doesn't replace either as effectively won't interest anyone that isn't super mobile. Maybe future Intel processes make it so that the Surface Pro is as light and thin as a regular ARM tablet and the market swings back, right now the consumer market couldn't care less about productivity tablets...nerd1 - Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - link
I think 99% of the computational need for ULV devices (MBA, surface pro, etc) can be fulfilled with bay trail device, given good enough screen and input methods (wacom). They are basically only good for web browsing and light office tasks, yet more expensive and vastly underpowered than full-voltage quad core offerings with discrete GPUs,So that's my main disappointment - if MS had released a bay trail version of surface pro with the same dimension and price of surface 2, it would be a real game changer. And many OEMs already have proved that they can release BT devices at the same price range of Tegra 4 devices.
robinthakur - Thursday, September 26, 2013 - link
It is quite a nice device, bit late to the market though and feels like what the first Surface should have been. As a Visual Studio and Xcode dev, there's nothing in it which would make me stop using my trusty MacBook pro from 2011 (which is still better specced than the Surface 2, but obviously bigger) running Windows in a VM and iPad combo though. When they eventually need upgrading I might look at MS's offerings, as the Surface is actually quite well built and designed by PC standards. However by that time, Windows 8/8.1 might be a distant memory judging by the current sentiment... Bundling Office is a good idea but must really hurt their bottom line...